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Consequences Of Brexit [Part 8] Read First Post Before Posting

Groose

Mod Note: As we are getting rather tired of seeing reports about this. The use of the word Remoaners  is to cease. Either posts like adults, or don't post at all. The mod warnings have been clear.

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mort

In addition to remoaner we are also not going to allow the use of libdums or liebore - if you cannot behave like adults and post without recourse to these childish insults then please refrain from posting. If you have a problem with this then you all know where the helpdesk is. 

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22 hours ago, Halibut said:

You don't recognise that Brexit is a total horror show nor that the Tory scum are a controlling elite.

Double yikes.

The Tories were elected in a democratic election. Like them or loathe them, they put themselves to the people and the public vote.

 

Perhaps you prefer the EU method of appointing leaders? The EU Parliament is instructed who to nominate as president, the future of the EU is decided behind closed doors. EU citizens desperately want to elect the person who will govern the EU - but are denied this right. To the EU, electing it's leaders is both revolutionary and forbidden. To the rest of us its just called democracy.

 

EU leaders chose Ursula von der Leyen to replace Jean-Claude Juncker as the leader of the European Union despite the fact she was not on the ballot paper as a candidate and had no manifesto.

 

Is this how you want things done in the UK?

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2 hours ago, Car Boot said:

The Tories were elected in a democratic election. Like them or loathe them, they put themselves to the people and the public vote.

 

Perhaps you prefer the EU method of appointing leaders? The EU Parliament is instructed who to nominate as president, the future of the EU is decided behind closed doors. EU citizens desperately want to elect the person who will govern the EU - but are denied this right. To the EU, electing it's leaders is both revolutionary and forbidden. To the rest of us its just called democracy.

 

EU leaders chose Ursula von der Leyen to replace Jean-Claude Juncker as the leader of the European Union despite the fact she was not on the ballot paper as a candidate and had no manifesto.

 

Is this how you want things done in the UK?

The "leaders of the EU" are, and have at all times been, the 28 heads of state which compose the European Council.

 

Last I checked, each of them is still democratically elected. The President of that Council is also democratically elected by the Council members.

 

Neither the EU Parliament President, nor the Commission President -nor the European Council President indeed- "govern" the EU: they help implement, in their respective capacities, the governance collectively decided by the European Council.

 

Seems you are still mistaking the EU for a sovereign country or a federation. It's an easy mistake for those unwilling to educate themselves about facts. Unless you are barracking. It's hard to tell, with your frequently-factless rethoric.

 

EDIT: given the methodology  through which British PMs end up in the job (inclusive of party leadership selection), with particular emphasis on the clear failings of the FPTP system, I can't really see how the UK has any lessons left to give  about 'democracy'. You have a system, at best it's no worse than others. But it's a long, very long shout from better-in-class PR-based systems, that reflect the choices of the electorate so much more closely than FPTP ever could.

Edited by L00b

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47 minutes ago, L00b said:

The "leaders of the EU" are, and have at all times been, the 28 heads of state which compose the European Council.

 

Last I checked, each of them is still democratically elected. The President of that Council is also democratically elected by the Council members.

 

Neither the EU Parliament President, nor the Commission President -nor the European Council President indeed- "govern" the EU: they help implement, in their respective capacities, the governance collectively decided by the European Council.

 

Seems you are still mistaking the EU for a sovereign country or a federation. It's an easy mistake for those unwilling to educate themselves about facts. Unless you are barracking. It's hard to tell, with your frequently-factless rethoric.

 

EDIT: given the methodology  through which British PMs end up in the job (inclusive of party leadership selection), with particular emphasis on the clear failings of the FPTP system, I can't really see how the UK has any lessons left to give  about 'democracy'. You have a system, at best it's no worse than others. But it's a long, very long shout from better-in-class PR-based systems, that reflect the choices of the electorate so much more closely than FPTP ever could.

So you disagree with Gonzalez Pons, spokesperson for the then largest EPP group in the European Parliament, who in July 2019 stated (regarding the undemocratic actions of the European Council):

 

“You were telling the parliament who it should nominate as president of our chamber! You are now at the point where you’re deciding who is in charge of the ECB (European Central Bank) as if there was one more political nomination. This is not democracy – you are supporting the Eurosceptics, even the nationalists. None of the presidents on the council would accept this being done in their countries. It would be taken to a constitutional court".

 

Many other MEPs also condemned the lack of democracy in the EU.

 

But according to you its all fine. You prefer the future of the EU being decided behind closed doors with no input from the voters.

Edited by Car Boot

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Seems I was mistaking the EU for a democracy - something it never has been or will be.

 

Political nominations are how the EU imposes candidates to lead the Commission and to lead the EU Parliament - at the same time ignoring all the candidates that have been voted for by European citizens.

 

It's the EU way.

Edited by Car Boot

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28 minutes ago, Car Boot said:

So you disagree with Gonzalez Pons, spokesperson for the then largest EPP group in the European Parliament, who in July 2019 stated (regarding the undemocratic actions of the European Council):

 

“You were telling the parliament who it should nominate as president of our chamber! You are now at the point where you’re deciding who is in charge of the ECB (European Central Bank) as if there was one more political nomination. This is not democracy – you are supporting the Eurosceptics, even the nationalists. None of the presidents on the council would accept this being done in their countries. It would be taken to a constitutional court".

 

Many other MEPs also condemned the lack of democracy in the EU.

 

But according to you its all fine. You prefer the future of the EU being decided behind closed doors with no input from the voters.

Can you back up either or both of the claims in bold above, with quote(s) from my post?

Edited by L00b

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Ms von der Leyen, the President of the European Commission, was NOT endorsed by any of the party groupings within the EU parliament during the 2019 EU Parliament election. These party groupings are comprised of directly elected MEPs.

 

Even her own grouping, the EPP, didn't want her nominated. Ms von der Leyen  was not on the ballot paper as a candidate and had no manifesto. The MEP directly elected representatives of the European voters didn't want her. The citizens of the EU didn't want her.

 

Those who believe that democracy has no part to play in the running of the EU wanted her elected, and instructed the fig leaf Parliament to approve her nomination. A similar system exists for the nomination of approved leaders in North Korea.

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Car Boot said:

Seems I was mistaking the EU for a democracy - something it never has been or will be.

 

Political nominations are how the EU imposes candidates to lead the Commission and to lead the EU Parliament - at the same time ignoring all the candidates that have been voted for by European citizens.

 

It's the EU way.

Probably the best way forward if you believe in the principles of European unity.

Our misguided electorate put Euro sceptics in as MEPs.

Might as well elect Guy Fawkes as your local MP.

Nigel Farage to lead the EU Parliament?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, RJRB said:

Probably the best way forward if you believe in the principles of European unity.

Our misguided electorate put Euro sceptics in as MEPs.

Might as well elect Guy Fawkes as your local MP.

Nigel Farage to lead the EU Parliament?

The best way forward is to ignore all the candidates that have been directly elected by EU voters and to impose a behind closed doors politically nominated 'approved' candidate?

 

Kim Jong-Un would certainly approve.

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2 hours ago, RJRB said:

Probably the best way forward if you believe in the principles of European unity.

Our misguided electorate put Euro sceptics in as MEPs.

Might as well elect Guy Fawkes as your local MP.

Nigel Farage to lead the EU Parliament?

 

 

The turnout for European elections has always be low by our electorate because not enough people care about who represent them as MEPs.  If all the remain voters had supported the Tory, Labour and Lib Dem parties in recent European elections then we wouldn't have had more than a handful of Euro sceptics as MEPs  and most likely the EU referendum would never have happened.

Edited by West 77
spelling

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3 hours ago, L00b said:

Can you back up either or both of the claims in bold above, with quote(s) from my post?

 

3 hours ago, Car Boot said:

Ms von der Leyen, the President of the European Commission, was NOT endorsed by any of the party groupings within the EU parliament during the 2019 EU Parliament election. These party groupings are comprised of directly elected MEPs.

 

Even her own grouping, the EPP, didn't want her nominated. Ms von der Leyen  was not on the ballot paper as a candidate and had no manifesto. The MEP directly elected representatives of the European voters didn't want her. The citizens of the EU didn't want her.

 

Those who believe that democracy has no part to play in the running of the EU wanted her elected, and instructed the fig leaf Parliament to approve her nomination. A similar system exists for the nomination of approved leaders in North Korea.

 

 

 

So, you can't back it up. Do you feel like retracting your claims now? Specifically:

 

that I "disagree with Gonzalez Pons";

that according to me "its all fine"; and

that I "prefer the future of the EU being decided behind closed doors with no input from the voters".

 

Anytime you're ready.

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