Consequences Of Brexit [Part 8] Read First Post Before Posting

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1 hour ago, Car Boot said:

Most people are sick of the EU paradise and won't miss it when it's gone.

i'll miss the research funding, which i use to help develop manufacturing IP for the benefit of British firms...

 

i suppose that makes me a traitor.

[Mister Gee 823]

1 minute ago, tinfoilhat said:

This^^^^

 

It's a start of a decade long mess where nothing gets done. 

All because of a scheming bunch of charlatans who lied and deceived their way to a marginal win in a non-binding referendum which they then misrepresented as a mandate to do something whose details hadn't even been figured out. Oh, and they’ll get even richer by it.

 

 

[tinfoilhat 11]

4 minutes ago, Mister Gee said:

All because of a scheming bunch of charlatans who lied and deceived their way to a marginal win in a non-binding referendum which they then misrepresented as a mandate to do something whose details hadn't even been figured out. Oh, and they’ll get even richer by it.

 

 

And get in again. Bookies were offering 5/2 on a Tory minority government,  13/8 for a Tory majority, Labour majority 9/1. I don't doubt them. The no deal brexit followed by a Tory government with a majority (or with  brexit party help) will be disastrous. I don't know why Car Boot et al doesn't see it.

[L00b 441]

1 hour ago, stifflersmom said:

Brexit, if it happens, will just be the start. There won't be a clean break but years of negotiation on trade deals and other agreements.

Get Brexit Done may be a nice electioneering slogan, but it is far from the reality.

This is entirely correct, but is at risk of overlooking the fundamental reason why there will be years more political turmoil after 31st October (and accessorily why there has already been about three years of political turmoil by now):

 

(i) until and unless the form of Brexit chosen by the UK satisfies the EU's preliminary red lines (Brexit bill, citizens' rights, Irish border), the EU is never going to even entertain any negotiating of its future relationship with the UK.

 

(ii) no form of Brexit, save as to May's WA with backstop (or any softer version which throws NI fully under the Union bus), can ever satisfy the EU's preliminary red lines (Brexit bill, citizens' rights, Irish border).

 

(iii) the UK is the both the junior party and the asking party at the negotiation table: it doesn't have any leverage, the EU doesn't have to accommodate its exceptionalism.

 

Those years of negotiations? They're still going to be of the UK negotiating with itself.

Edited October 4, 2019 by L00b

[Top Cats Hat 10]

15 hours ago, apelike said:

But... the GFA agreement only mentions a border once and then fleetingly. 

I see that you are still deliberately or otherwise misunderstanding the Belfast Agreement.

 

The ‘border question’ is not about watchtowers and security installations it is about parity of esteem for both communities, North and South of the border. If someone who identifies as Irish and lives in the North, the Belfast Agreement not only allows them to aspire to a united Ireland without being criminalised, but also to exercise that aspiration by being able to treat the border as if it didn’t exist.

 

The right to cross that border in either direction free of any restraint is absolutely guaranteed by the Belfast Agreement. It is nothing to do with trade or security and everything to do with political and cultural principals.

[Top Cats Hat 10]

2 hours ago, stifflersmom said:

Brexit, if it happens, will just be the start. There won't be a clean break but years of negotiation on trade deals and other agreements.

Interestingly, the former Aussie Prime Minister Julia Gillard was on Politics Live this morning. In a former life she was a trade minister and said that despite Johnson and Gove saying that great trade deals were up for offer with Australia, these deals would take years to be negotiated and no one should be expecting them any time soon. She also said that she found it hard to fathom why on earth the UK would want to prioritise a small trade deal with Australia over a massive one with our nearest neighbours in the EU.

 

She was also shown footage of Conservative Party delegates cheering Bozo when he said that we will have an ‘Australian style’ points-based immigration system and she pointed out that the Aussie system is there to encourage migration, not discourage it.

[apelike 10]

1 hour ago, Top Cats Hat said:

The ‘border question’ is not about watchtowers and security installations it is about parity of esteem for both communities, North and South of the border.

I have already alluded to that in part when I stated closer co-operation between North and South and it definitely was mainly about the security installations being dismantled.

 

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If someone who identifies as Irish and lives in the North, the Belfast Agreement not only allows them to aspire to a united Ireland without being criminalised, but also to exercise that aspiration by being able to treat the border as if it didn’t exist.

That could still happen just as it does in Norway or Sweden. Free movement of people but with border controls for goods etc.

 

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The right to cross that border in either direction free of any restraint is absolutely guaranteed by the Belfast Agreement.

But that is not how the EU see it. To them is is mainly about trade, tariffs and taxes, and compliance with EU laws. Originally it was Barnier that put forward the idea of those same border controls elsewhere from the actual border boundaries and as you know that idea was rejected. 

 

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It is nothing to do with trade or security and everything to do with political and cultural principals.

Its all to do with trade and that's what the problem is when setting up border controls on the actual border itself. I think Norway has over 80 border points and yet people and passports are very rarely checked and trade and goods being processed elsewhere. Political and cultural principles are as you know subject to change. If they weren't then we would not have people keep telling us that it is democratic to change your mind.

 

14 minutes ago, Top Cats Hat said:

She was also shown footage of Conservative Party delegates cheering Bozo when he said that we will have an ‘Australian style’ points-based immigration system and she pointed out that the Aussie system is there to encourage migration, not discourage it.

It only encourages those that are aptly qualified in the necessary skills and discourages any that are not. It come under the The General Skilled Migration (GSM) Program.

Edited October 4, 2019 by apelike

[Top Cats Hat 10]

44 minutes ago, apelike said:

I think Norway has over 80 border points and yet people and passports are very rarely checked and trade and goods being processed elsewhere.

Rarely checked but still checked.  Trying to make comparisons with other EU/non-EU borders won’t work. The Irish border is unique in that citizens on either side of the border have the absolute right to travel, be educated and work on either side of that border.

 

44 minutes ago, apelike said:

Political and cultural principles are as you know subject to change. If they weren't then we would not have people keep telling us that it is democratic to change your mind.

Absolutely. But changed with democratic consent. The last 24 hours has shown us that everyone on the island of Ireland apart from the DUP, wishes to retain the protections of the Belfast Agreement.

 

And as has been pointed out by others on this thread, the DUP opposed the peace process and refused to take part in the cross party talks which led to the agreement. They also opposed the Agreement in the 1998 referendum and the majority of ‘No’ votes in the North from that referendum came from DUP supporters. I note that Lockdoctor has now deleted his claim that the DUP supported the Belfast Agreement. 😉

 

44 minutes ago, apelike said:

.It only encourages those that are aptly qualified in the necessary skills and discourages any that are not. 

Brexit supporters and Tory Party members want to reduce overall immigration regardless of skills.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Top Cats Hat

[horribleblob 213]

58 minutes ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Interestingly, the former Aussie Prime Minister Julia Gillard was on Politics Live this morning. In a former life she was a trade minister and said that despite Johnson and Gove saying that great trade deals were up for offer with Australia, these deals would take years to be negotiated and no one should be expecting them any time soon. She also said that she found it hard to fathom why on earth the UK would want to prioritise a small trade deal with Australia over a massive one with our nearest neighbours in the EU.

 

She was also shown footage of Conservative Party delegates cheering Bozo when he said that we will have an ‘Australian style’ points-based immigration system and she pointed out that the Aussie system is there to encourage migration, not discourage it.

That was an excellent edition of Politics Live today. I'd recommend that leavers check it out on 'catch-up'. Gillard spoke with utter clarity.

[Guest]

Reports all indicate today that Bojo is ready to ask for an extension if no deal is agreed by 19th.

 

So what happened to his " die in a ditch than have another extension" and " UK will leave the EU 31st Oct deal or no deal"

[Top Cats Hat 10]

14 minutes ago, horribleblob said:

That was an excellent edition of Politics Live today. I'd recommend that leavers check it out on 'catch-up'. Gillard spoke with utter clarity.

Yes, it was refreshing to have an ‘outside view’ on Brexit rather than the usual panel of Labour MP, pro-Brexit journalist, half-wit representative from the Brexit Party and random ‘expert from somewhere’.

 

And yes, she did speak with clarity and as an ex-Prime Minister you would expect her to have a high level of political understanding, but it should worry Leave supporters that a politician from the other side of the world has a clearer understanding of Brexit than most Brexiteers! 😳

[melthebell 863]

58 minutes ago, Mr Fisk said:

Reports all indicate today that Bojo is ready to ask for an extension if no deal is agreed by 19th.

 

So what happened to his " die in a ditch than have another extension" and " UK will leave the EU 31st Oct deal or no deal"

He had to, no amount of balls out postering make him above our sovereign courts lol