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Consequences Of Brexit [Part 8] Read First Post Before Posting

Vaati

Mod Note: As we are getting rather tired of seeing reports about this. The use of the word Remoaners  is to cease. Either posts like adults, or don't post at all. The mod warnings have been clear.

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mort

In addition to remoaner we are also not going to allow the use of libdums or liebore - if you cannot behave like adults and post without recourse to these childish insults then please refrain from posting. If you have a problem with this then you all know where the helpdesk is. 

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2 hours ago, Car Boot said:

UK EU membership = chaos, political stalemate and deep division - the polarisation of society between the rich and poor.

 

End the chaos. End the division. Leave the EU. Heal the UK.

Car Bot makes me chuckle. Should I report myself now for a holiday? 😂

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3 hours ago, Car Boot said:

Our EU membership has become a very destructive and divisive force for harm in our society. Our membership is quite literally tearing us apart. There is nothing positive about it - only negatives.

 

We must Leave to heal the deep divisions caused by our membership of this trading bloc. There is now no alternative. 

 

Let's do this and heal.

You are joking right? You push us out of the EU like this and you will be dealing with the fallout for years and decades. I'll be screwing over everyone I know had just a poster up for brexit. It'll be scorched earth on this.

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10 hours ago, Dardandec said:

But we are leaving, just not without a withdrawal agreement. 

He also said if we want out of the EU, he would bring us out, hows that working out for you?

Are we though? The Irish border will never have a perfect solution for the leavers so they can just keep blocking it to suit themselves. Boris got them an agreement even though they said he wasn't trying to and will give them time to look it through before an election but still it's not good enough.

All I see is remainers doing their best to stop what was voted for 3 years ago. Boris has done all he can to take us out but is stopped at every turn, I don't see what else he can do, that's why the election is needed to sort it unless we have a vote on the deal, either leave with this deal or no deal at all

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17 hours ago, CaptainSwing said:

The things you mention in your last paragraph (along with earlier policies moving in the same direction) are precisely what made the UK the most liberal, pro-business EU member state (if not, in the long run, the most stable one).  Divide and rule is a classic kleptocrat tactic.

 

I'd argue that economics was the main driver of colonialism.  The East India Company was first and foremost a Company.  The geopolitical stuff was secondary to that, [the ruling classes of] France / England / Netherlands / etc. protecting their economic interests against each other.

No, the policies favouring business in the UK long, long pre-date the relative importance of FDI, and globalism more generally. They are e.g. why De Gaulle opposed the UK's admission into the EEC for decades, your mercantilism was always worn on your sleeve.

 

I accept your last argument partially, in that I would rephrase it somewhat:  economics was the main driver of colonialism indeed, but towards geopolitical prevalence which, between the Empires of the day, was the primary goal, not a secondary one. WW1 was the earliest death knell of that -for European empires at least- as millions of colonised were transported for slaughter into far-away trenches, in a final orgy of imperialistic willy-waving. WW2 just finished fragilising the old empires' power base enough, for colonies to gain their independence.

 

You can choose to see globalism as a 21st century version of colonialism, personally I'll never see it that way (trading brings people together, it doesn't divide them, hence GATT>WTO, EEC>EFTA>SM, etc.) and would instead charge the 21st century political class with being terminally venal, and so failing to harness the economical gains of globalism for the common, redistributive good (typical example: red 'discrete tax deal' carpet to GAFAs here there and everywhere, instead of enforcing regular tax legislation).

 

I'd argue that what you are looking at with the Brexit vote in the UK post 2008, is a re-run of the rise of populism pretty much everywhere post 1929 (a picture completed with the US turning isolationist again, like in the 30s).

 

That genie was mostly let out of the box a few years ago now, and he's been a busy little bee on (global) social media since, stoking and teasing that basest trait of human nature, which amoral politicians know only too well how to exploit. Judging from posts on here, online and voxpop comments, news, articles and more over the past, what, 5-6 years?  he's not getting back into that box any time soon.

Edited by L00b

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What are the chances 16 year olds will get the vote now?

 

The bill being put forward can have such an amendment attached. 

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9 minutes ago, Albert the Cat said:

What are the chances 16 year olds will get the vote now?

 

The bill being put forward can have such an amendment attached. 

I rather suspect that is why the Lib Dems and the SNP are going to support it - to slap such an amendment on it.

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Bring on the Brexit general election!

 

Let's do this!

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16 minutes ago, Car Boot said:

Bring on the Brexit general election!

 

Let's do this!

 

Running an election as a Brexit referendum is completely and utterly daft.

 

The resulting government will be in power for five years: if (allowing a unicorn into the argument for a second) the LibDems were returned with a majority and revoked Art.50 on Day 1, would you say that all of their other policies should therefore be enacted afterwards as the Will of the People?

Furthermore, GEs in the UK are not truly democratic, because of FPTP. I'm not sure who it was I heard saying it yesterday, but treating the GE as a proxy Brexit referendum means it's entirely possible that the country would see a "majority" of 30-35% in favour of a hard Brexit return the new government, even though 60% of the electorate voted against it.

 

Still, I anticipate that running this GE as the next Brexit referendum is exactly what the UK is going to do, wasting still more time. Meet here from early January 2020 for the next round of 'will he-won't he request yet another extension'.

Edited by L00b

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8 minutes ago, L00b said:
 

Running an election as a Brexit referendum is completely and utterly daft.

 

The resulting government will be in power for five years: if (allowing a unicorn into the argument for a second) the LibDems were returned with a majority and revoked Art.50 on Day 1, would you say that all of their other policies should therefore be enacted afterwards as the Will of the People?

Furthermore, GEs in the UK are not truly democratic, because of FPTP. I'm not sure who it was I heard saying it yesterday, but treating the GE as a proxy Brexit referendum means it's entirely possible that the country would see a "majority" of 30-35% in favour of a hard Brexit return the new government, even though 60% of the electorate voted against it.

 

Still, I anticipate that running this GE as the next Brexit referendum is exactly what the UK is going to do, wasting still more time. Meet here from early January 2020 for the next round of 'will he-won't he request yet another extension'.

Any general election that happens before the UK Leaves the EU will be dominated by Brexit. 

 

Power elite Remainers here in the UK have now given up on their plans to hold another EU referendum, a so-called 'Peoples Vote', and are as confused and out of touch as the official Remain campaign was during the June 2016 referendum. 

 

A general election will give us a Brexit breakthrough. One way, or another. 

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21 minutes ago, Car Boot said:

Any general election that happens before the UK Leaves the EU will be dominated by Brexit. 

 

Power elite Remainers here in the UK have now given up on their plans to hold another EU referendum, a so-called 'Peoples Vote', and are as confused and out of touch as the official Remain campaign was during the June 2016 referendum. 

 

A general election will give us a Brexit breakthrough. One way, or another. 

Your next few GEs over the coming decade (at least) will be dominated by Brexit regardless, so you'd better make your peace with it early.

 

But this GE is not going to give you any Brexit breakthrough I'm afraid. Rather, with the Conservatives haemorraging seats in Scotland and the Brexit Party phagociting the Tory vote south of Adrian's Wall, just another hung Parliament.

 

Edit - to illustrate this last point, today's poll of polls about a GE2019 in the FT could very easily be mistaken for that of the GE2017.

 

2019:

2017:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Opinion_polling_UK_2020_election_short_axis.png

Edited by L00b

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1 hour ago, Car Boot said:

Any general election that happens before the UK Leaves the EU will be dominated by Brexit. 

 

In which case, we’d be better off with a second referendum instead.

 

 

57 minutes ago, L00b said:

Edit - to illustrate this last point, today's poll of polls about a GE2019 in the FT could very easily be mistaken for that of the GE2017.

 

2019:

2017:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Opinion_polling_UK_2020_election_short_axis.png

This election is going to be impossible to call. There will be tactical voting on a scale never seen before. I find the Lib Dem’s difficult to stomach, but they’ll have my vote just to keep the Tories out in my constituency.

 

The 11% Tory lead is largely illusory, for just that reason.  
 

I can’t see a GE solving anything at all. If anything, it might make matters even worse.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Pettytom said:

 I can’t see a GE solving anything at all. If anything, it might make matters even worse.

Corbyn’s refusal to unify the remain vote under Labour means that the best he can hope for is some form of coalition with the Scottish ladies and the Greens. 
 

Another hung Parliament in December would then leave a second referendum as the only way to resolve the Brexit issue. An extension to the new Jan 31st deadline would only be granted by the EU on condition that a referendum is held to put the matter to bed.

 

Unfortunately, December is to soon for Labour to dump Corbyn. Let’s not forget that it was the grass roots supporters who put in the legwork to turn a 20 point deficit into an ‘almost won’ in 2017. Many of those people will simply not have the passion to repeat that effort for a pro-Brexit Labour Party.

 

And a reminder to ‘soft Brexit’ leave supporters tempted to vote for Bozo. Don’t forget that if Farage doesn’t stand, it will be because a deal over a hard or no-deal Brexit will have been done with Johnson and Cummings.

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