Consequences Of Brexit [Part 8] Read First Post Before Posting

[Lockdoctor 10]

30 minutes ago, Longcol said:

If you can't get your own party to vote for you then don't go blaming the opposition.

 

We're rather tired of the Tories blaming everyone but themselves for this mess.

I'm blaming the MPs  who voted against Theresa May's  Withdrawal on offer from the EU and also voted to rule out a no-deal regardless of which party they represent for our country not leaving  the EU on 29th March.

 

At the end of the day both the Labour Party and the Tory Party stated in their 2017 General Election manifestos they would implement the EU referendum result and both parties knew leaving the EU without a deal was the default legal position, because Article 50 had been triggered before the General Election.   The Labour Party lost the 2017 General Election which is why they couldn't do the negotiations with the EU, but their MPs should still have supported the Withdrawal Agreement on offer if they thought it was better than a no-deal rather than playing party politics or seeking to block the implementation of the democratic 2016 EU referendum result.

 

Some Tory MPs have behaved badly but the Labour Party leadership have behaved shamefully throughout the Brexit negotiations.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Lockdoctor

[L00b 441]

1 hour ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Because it would have destroyed the economy, grounded all commercial aviation and stopped all road transport, immediately stopped the supply of imported medicines and radioisotopes, removed countless surgeons, oncologists and other medical specialists from their jobs as well as nearly a third of nursing and ancillary staff, left many thousands of Europe-based expatriates homeless and with no medical protection.

 

Need I go on?

 

Any government who tried that would fall in days.

Actually, no.

 

It did not happen, because it could not legally happen: an EU member state cannot slam the EU door overnight, it must invoke Article 50 first.

 

Them's the rules, the UK drafted them (amongst all the EU member states, the UK did all the heavy lifting to draft and get Art.50 into the Lisbon Treaty) and willingly signed up to them.

 

The fastest the UK could have left, was to have Parliament vote  both the triggering of Article 50 and a declaration that it was concluding negotiations on the date of triggering, i.e. at the same time, as early after 24 June 2016 as due Parliamentary process allows (i.e. minimum number of days to draft, then table, motion before HoC debate and vote, etc.)

 

But the UK never could do that, because Cameron resigned on the day, so there needed to be a Conservative leadership contest & elections first, which takes weeks.

 

[in simple and absolute terms, all this constitutional law and party pageantry aside, you are dead right of course ]

41 minutes ago, Lockdoctor said:

I will try again.   

 

At the moment there are a large number of MPs seeking to stop Brexit all together.  Once our country has left the EU on 31st October these MPs will no longer be able to stop Brexit because it will have happened.  Then it will be in everyone's interest to work to achieve the best future  trade deals and arrangements with he EU and other countries.  There will only be a transitional period if a Withdrawal Agreement  or a Managed Exit is agreed between the UK and EU.

 

(...)

There's no such thing as a 'managed exit'.

 

There's the withdrawal agreement, either Theresa's with backstop or Johnson's latest (which manages to be far worse than Theresa's, kudos to Boris' incapability here), in either case with a defined and known transitional period.

 

Or no deal, with a few tidbits about aviation, logistics and such, kept only because they are useful to the EU27 and so for their benefit, and ongoing only at their pleasure (ie undefined and for an unknown period of time).

 

If you think it's all been chaos so far, and you Brexit without a deal, you ain't seen nothing, but nothing, yet. In those circumstances, trade gloves will be off, and the ensuing EU/UK negotiations will be rather grim for the UK.

[Longcol 596]

We all know Corbyn is as handy as a crack in a glass eye, but I suppose Lockdoctor admitting the ERG share the blame is progress from the position of  completely absolving them 😎

Edited October 14, 2019 by Longcol

[Top Cats Hat 10]

12 minutes ago, L00b said:

Actually, no.

 

It did not happen, because it could not legally happen: an EU member state cannot slam the EU door overnight, it must invoke Article 50 first..

I was referring to a literal interpretation of the ‘leave’ option on the ballot paper. What some would call a ‘pure’ Brexit.

 

When Ian Smith declared UDI for what was known as Rhodesia in 1965, it was also illegal and as a result was not recognised by any country anywhere in the world. 
 

It still happened though.

[Lockdoctor 10]

 

Quote

There's no such thing as a 'managed exit'.

 

There's the withdrawal agreement, either Theresa's with backstop or Johnson's latest (which manages to be far worse than Theresa's, kudos to Boris' incapability here), in either case with a defined and known transitional period.

 

Or no deal, with a few tidbits about aviation, logistics and such, kept only because they are useful to the EU27 and so for their benefit, and ongoing only at their pleasure (ie undefined and for an unknown period of time).

 

If you think it's all been chaos so far, and you Brexit without a deal, you ain't seen nothing, but nothing, yet. In those circumstances, trade gloves will be off, and the ensuing EU/UK negotiations will be rather grim for the UK.

Of course there could be a managed exit.

 

At the moment the EU still think there is a chance the UK will stay in the EU and that is the only reason they are making things difficult.  Once the UK leave the EU then it will be in the EU's interest to  agree amicable arrangements with the UK regarding trade and other matters given the fact they currently have a big trade surplus with the UK.

 

31 minutes ago, Longcol said:

We all know Corbyn is as handy as a crack in a glass eye, but I suppose Lockdoctor admitting the ERG share the blame is progress from the position of  completely absolving them 😎

Hilarious.  The ERG are blameless for the current mess because they are happy to leave the EU by the default legal position.  The best example of a Tory MP behaving badly is Anna Soubry.  Yes, I know she no longer is a Tory MP but she voted in favour of holding the 2016 EU Referendum, voted in favour of triggering Article 50 and stood for re-election as a Tory MP in 2017 with a manifesto to implement the democratic 2016 EU Referendum result.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Lockdoctor

[melthebell 862]

58 minutes ago, apelike said:

No because it is incredibly flawed thinking!

Lol, can't believe you said that. Leaver thinking is the highest grade of flawed ever. It's based on lies, lies, lies and errrm mistruths

[Top Cats Hat 10]

23 minutes ago, Lockdoctor said:

At the moment the EU still think there is a chance the UK will stay in the EU and that is the only reason they are making things difficult. 

The EU has been bending over backwards for the last three years to facilitate a deal.

 

In what way are they making things difficult? 🙄

[Longcol 596]

14 minutes ago, Top Cats Hat said:

The EU has been bending over backwards for the last three years to facilitate a deal.

 

In what way are they making things difficult? 🙄

It's the blame game all over again - Lockdoctor appears to be happy to blame anyone for the mess - except the Tories.

[Pettytom 1]

1 hour ago, Lockdoctor said:

Hilarious.  The ERG are blameless for the current mess because they are happy to leave the EU by the default legal position.  The best example of a Tory MP behaving badly is Anna Soubry.  Yes, I know she no longer is a Tory MP but she voted in favour of holding the 2016 EU Referendum, voted in favour of triggering Article 50 and stood for re-election as a Tory MP in 2017 with a manifesto to implement the democratic 2016 EU Referendum result.

We should all thank Anna Soubry for her part in avoiding a catastrophic no deal Brexit.

 

She should be commended for standing firm in the face of  dreadful intimidation.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Pettytom

[retep 68]

54 minutes ago, Top Cats Hat said:

The EU has been bending over backwards for the last three years to facilitate a deal.

 

In what way are they making things difficult? 🙄

Where's the deal in leave or remain?

 

The REMAINERS have been the fly in the ointment, not accepting they came second in a two horse race.

[Litotes 63]

We all know that manifestos aren't legally binding.

[Top Cats Hat 10]

1 hour ago, Longcol said:

It's the blame game all over again - Lockdoctor appears to be happy to blame anyone for the mess - except the Tories.

Lockdoctor seems to forget that the EU did not vote for Brexit.