Consequences Of Brexit [Part 8] Read First Post Before Posting

[L00b 441]

33 minutes ago, Robin-H said:

I'm not sure the logic behind that. 

 

The Scottish independence referendum was demanded by people who wanted Scottish independence. They lost. 

 

The UK Referendum on the AV system was demanded by people who wanted to change the FPTP system. They lost. 

 

Why is the EU referendum different? 

The EU referendum was demanded by noone: prior to 2014, the UK's membership of the EU was polling at less than 6% amongst people's political preoccupations.

 

A reference to the Scottish indyref should be made with caution, as well: if the UK does Brexit, they'd be getting their second indyref within the next year or two (the applicable test of "no material change to circumstances" on which Scotland's continuing membership of the UK was premised at the time, would be well and truly shattered into a thousand tiny pieces by an actual Brexit, beyond the proverbial slam-dunk).

Edited September 20, 2019 by L00b

[Robin-H 11]

1 minute ago, L00b said:

The EU referendum was demanded by noone: prior to 2014, the UK's membership of the EU was polling at less than 6% amongst people's political preoccupations.

It was demanded by no-one? Really? I seem to remember UKIP polling quite highly in the 2014 Euro elections...

[L00b 441]

13 minutes ago, Robin-H said:

It was demanded by no-one? Really? I seem to remember UKIP polling quite highly in the 2014 Euro elections...

And what percentage of the UK electorate for a domestic GE, never mind the whole UK, did that represent?

 

The 2016 referendum was a political tool of the Tories, by the Tories, for the Tories. And it's not worked: over 3 years on, with a PM and cabinet-full of pro-crashout ministers, they're still reacting to the BXP for avoiding an outflanking manoeuver. 

 

Their voters, Tories like BXP, are all just useful idiots along for the ride. Clearest evidence? As instructed by UK media, mass and social, they now hold those who support remain, ie the centre ground of the status quo, as "extremists" 

 

So I'd suggest some cop-on under the circumstances...but then I've been suggesting that for close to 4 years now, and there's little evidence of any more of it being demonstrated this late in the game, than over the past years.

Edited September 20, 2019 by L00b

[Robin-H 11]

2 minutes ago, L00b said:

And what percentage of the UK electorate for a domestic GE, never mind the whole UK, did that represent?

 

The 2016 referendum was a political tool of the Tories, by the Tories, for the Tories. And it's not worked: over 3 years on, with a PM and cabinet-full of pro-crashout ministers, they're still reacting to the BXP for avoiding an outflanking manoeuver. 

 

Their voters, Tories like BXP, are all just useful idiots along for the ride.

UKIP won 26.6% of the vote in the 2014 EU election in the UK. They won a larger share of the vote than any other party. That's not nobody. It's not a majority but I didn't say it was.

 

Claiming that nobody was demanding a referendum is clearly untrue. 

[apelike 10]

1 hour ago, Top Cats Hat said:

The fact that it did not reflect the views of the nation in itself, is evidence that it was democratically flawed, regardless of the rules, regulations and agreements surrounding it.

But as stated it is impossible to reflect the views of the whole nation (whatever that means) as that is just not possible. Democracy is about enabling the eligible members of the state (electorate) to have a vote and does not include children, many people held at Her Majesty's pleasure, temporary residents or visitors and many more for obvious reasons, and the rules are clearly set out. Now, how do you propose a solution to that quandary?

 

https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk/referendums

[L00b 441]

23 minutes ago, Robin-H said:

UKIP won 26.6% of the vote in the 2014 EU election in the UK. They won a larger share of the vote than any other party. That's not nobody. It's not a majority but I didn't say it was.

 

Claiming that nobody was demanding a referendum is clearly untrue. 

Ukip won 26.6% with 4m votes. That means the other parties shared 73.4% with 11m.

 

Which of those other parties was campaigning on exiting the EU? That's right, none.

 

And yet a year later, we had the 2015  Referendum Act voted through, setting out the 2016 referendum, by the Tories (plus votes from MPs of the other parties, lest we forget), who had got 17 more MEP seats than UKIP at that 2014 EU elections.

 

If the Tories hadn't been frightened of UKIP, you'd have never had an EU referendum.

 

You can perfectly believe that 4m voters lending their voice to the nauseating bunch of miscreants that was the UKIP MEP candidates, represented 'people wanting to exit the EU'. I don't: they were the same vociferous minority protest-voting UKIP at the LabCon duopoly and austerity, as 2 years later in the referendum. Already Turkeys, and voting for ever more Xmas ever since.

 

Breaking news (genuine): Steve Barclay just out of meeting in Brussels. The EU has rejected the UK's request for a Brexit without the backstop. In other news, bears poo in woods, the Pope is catholic, grass is green and the sky is blue.

Edited September 20, 2019 by L00b

[apelike 10]

1 hour ago, Top Cats Hat said:

The 2016 referendum didn’t do that. It was always going to return a ‘Leave result’ as it was demanded by leave supporters, offered to those leave supporters and leave supporters were way more likely to partake in it.

May I remind you of the polls well before the referendum as it was predicted to return a remain vote. As the Lords have stated in one of their reviews, Governments only hold referendums if they think they can win. The EU has never been much of an issue regarding voters and a referendum was never demanded by them. Its always been a political manoeuvre by all the political parties including the LibDems to demand an in/out vote and even Jo Swinson in 2008 stated there should be a referendum on the major issue of whether we are in or out of Europe.

Edited September 20, 2019 by apelike

[Robin-H 11]

2 minutes ago, L00b said:

Ukip won 26.6% with 4m votes. That means the other parties shared 73.4% with 11m.

 

Which of those other parties was campaigning on exiting the EU? That's right, none.

 

And yet a year later, we had the 2015  Referendum Act voted through, setting out the 2016 referendum, by the Tories (plus votes from MPs of the other parties, lest we forget), who had got 17 more MEP seats than UKIP at that 2014 EU elections.

 

If the Tories hadn't been frightened of UKIP, you'd have never had an EU referendum.

 

You can perfectly believe that 4m voters lending their voice to the nauseating bunch of miscreants that was the UKIP MEP candidates, represented 'people wanting to exit the EU'. I don't: they were the same vociferous minority protest-voting UKIP at the LabCon duopoly and austerity, as 2 years later in the referendum. Already Turkeys, and voting for ever more Xmas ever since.

 

 

 

 

You're arguing for no reason. 

 

All I corrected you on was your claim that nobody was demanding an EU referendum. 4.4m people is not 'nobody'. 

[apelike 10]

3 minutes ago, L00b said:

Which of those other parties was campaigning on exiting the EU? That's right, none.

That is true but as in my previous post all parties have included the option for an EU referendum in their manifestos since 2000.

 

3 minutes ago, L00b said:

 

And yet a year later, we had the 2015  Referendum Act voted through, setting out the 2016 referendum, by the Tories (plus votes from MPs of the other parties, lest we forget), who had got 17 more MEP seats than UKIP at that 2014 EU elections.

 

If the Tories hadn't been frightened of UKIP, you'd have never had an EU referendum.

Again very true, what people dont seem to be understanding is that this mess from a referendum is because of politics.

 

[L00b 441]

13 minutes ago, Robin-H said:

You're arguing for no reason. 

 

All I corrected you on was your claim that nobody was demanding an EU referendum. 4.4m people is not 'nobody'. 

I acknowledged a 6% polling rate of people concerned about the UK's membership of the EU in 2014 in my first post (#1625).

 

As it happens, the 4m UKIP vote in 2014 corresponds quasi-identically to 6% (6.7) of a 60m population in the UK. 

 

Who's arguing for no reason here? 

 

So you don't like me saying 'noone' instead of 6%. Woop-de-f-doo. Or does 6% somehow make a case for an generating act of parliament and then holding the non-binding result as validly trumping your constitutional arrangements, in your Brexit-fevered mind?

Edited September 20, 2019 by L00b

[Robin-H 11]

40 minutes ago, L00b said:

I acknowledged a 6% polling rate of people concerned about the UK's membership of the EU in 2014 in my first post (#1625).

 

As it happens, the 4m UKIP vote in 2014 corresponds quasi-identically to 6% (6.7) of a 60m population in the UK. 

 

Who's arguing for no reason here? 

 

So you don't like me saying 'noone' instead of 6%. Woop-de-f-doo. Or does 6% somehow make a case for an generating act of parliament and then holding the non-binding result as validly trumping your constitutional arrangements, in your Brexit-fevered mind?

Haha give it a rest! I voted remain, I'm anything but 'Brexit-fevered'.  

 

I note that it is a well trod tactic of certain people on here to try and suggest that the results of any democratic vote should be worked out as a percentage of the population, rather than the percentage of the people of voting. This is obviously a way of trying to minimise the figure, thus making the result seem illegitimate and more easily dismissible. That's not how votes work. Interesting too that people only do that when the result of the vote is something that they disagree with.. only 31% of the population voted to stay in the EC in the 1975 referendum. Only 23% of the population voted Labour in the 1997 Blair landslide... 

 

Yes, I have a problem with you saying no-one, when 26.6% of the voting population was demanding a referendum. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Robin-H

[Delayed 461]

25 minutes ago, Robin-H said:

Haha give it a rest! I voted remain, I'm anything but 'Brexit-fevered'.

Further evidence that if you don't agree with certain posters you are labelled a brexiteer.

 

I seriously hope that these self labelled intelligent remainer posters don't discuss things in person like they do on here.