Goodbye East Midlands Trains. Hello Emr

[Andy C 85]

3 hours ago, amnicoll said:

Appreciate the top speed is higher but given that there is very little of the route where this can be used my point was more about the difference to journey time this top speed would make.

 

I do not have comparative data on the reliability of 158/185s but from memory the 158s if properly maintained have proved very reliable

The 158s are perfectly adequate for the route but are getting old, built between 1989 and 1992, it is becoming more common that trains are shortformed 2 car instead of 4 car due to units being required for unplanned maintenance.

 

Its time to replace them with something more modern on this route, although they are still good enough to be cascaded elsewhere - perhaps to provide extra capacity and comfort on a line such as Nottingham-Skegness or Derby-Crewe?

 

There are some trips on the Liverpools that need 5 cars at least but there are short platforms that can only accommodate 4 cars (I think Widnes might be one of them), the class 158 does not offer selective door opening like many new trains do.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

All the planned work has been stopped on the Hope Valley Capacity scheme.

The master plan to improve train services to Dore, Hope Valley and Manchester has now been stopped. 

 

Lengthening and adding a platform at Dore has been stopped.

Passengers to/from Dore will have to be very careful as they wont be able to get off from one half of the train.

The 1892 signalling will not be replaced.

 

A large increase in the number of freight trains at Chinley and Hope will go ahead causing increased delays and cancellations.

 

The promise of three (originally four) fast and one stopping trains an hour to Manchester won't happen.

 

[1978 14]

7 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

All the planned work has been stopped on the Hope Valley Capacity scheme.

The master plan to improve train services to Dore, Hope Valley and Manchester has now been stopped. 

 

Lengthening and adding a platform at Dore has been stopped.

Passengers to/from Dore will have to be very careful as they wont be able to get off from one half of the train.

The 1892 signalling will not be replaced.

 

A large increase in the number of freight trains at Chinley and Hope will go ahead causing increased delays and cancellations.

 

The promise of three (originally four) fast and one stopping trains an hour to Manchester won't happen.

 

That is not correct.

 

It's true that it has been delayed and until work starts it may be delayed again and again until it's complete. That's the way railway projects proceed whether we like it (I don't) or not.  With our present political situation anything can happen so that has to be taken into account.

 

The latest is that the project was updated and re-costed at about £145million. It includes redoubling at Dore & Totley with a new 6 carriage platform, the existing platform restored to that length (as it was until 1985), and a footbridge with two lifts. There is to be a loop between Dore West and Dore South junctions to allow a freight train to wait there between the main and Hope Valley lines. There is to be another loop just east of Bamford to allow eastbound freight services to pull in and let passenger services pass (it could also allow a slow service to be passed by a fast). The exiting Heeley loop south of Sheffield station is to be lengthened to allow more options. Signalling work for the new tracks will be improved and control from Earles Sidings moves from Manchester to York to improve co-ordination with services north and south of Dore. (Resignalling of the route  is not part of the scheme - it's in the list of things needing to be done.) A pedestrian footbridge at Hathersage West is needed to replace a pedestrian level crossing in order to comply with current operating regulations (it will also have to be electrification ready standard to be compliant).

 

At this moment invitations to tender for the work are being prepared and should be issued in the next few weeks. Contractors are allowed a period to prepare their plans and quotations which then have to be considered and the whole project re-costed to ensure it will still be within budget. It then has to be confirmed by the DfT as the commissioning agents. (That's standard for all rail projects.) The detailed phasing of the work will then be planned so necessary line blockades cause the minimum inconvenience. That means they'll almost certainly include an Easter and Christmas period, weekends and nights.  Major earthworks are not advisable in winter. By the time all this planning is complete work will probably not start until spring 2022 and be complete by autumn 2023.

 

Some feel it could be brought forward up to a year. Others fear it will slip so it's not available for any new and revised services to run before the May 2024 timetable review. I'd put money on the latter, but still hope, but don't believe, 2022 could be achieved.

 

As far as the short platform at Dore is concerned it is an irritating issue, especially when the pre-1985 platform was fine, but it currently takes 4 carriages easily . Other Hope Valley line stations at Grindleford, Hathersage and Hope are being lengthened by the end of December (it will probably slip to January!) so all can take 4 carriage Northern trains. Only this lunchtime I saw a 150 and 142 working together westbound in full passenger service, so capacity can already be provided. (There's a story to that one but I'll not digress)

 

The Dore platform needs extending now to the old signal to allow fully functioning capacity for 6 coaches.  TransPennine Express are soon to run most of their Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes  trains as 6 carriages. A few are already - including the 7.14 outbound and a return service arriving at 18.04 from Manchester. Currently passengers booking seats from Dore will find they're in the first 3 coaches, not a problem. Those without booking,s including a large number with  season tickets, will see there's space in the rear 3 which can only be entered from the two doors of coach 4, one of which may be first class. This causes a scrum on the platform going, or in the train coming back. Those two trains will dwell at Dore for at least two 2 minutes instead of the timetabled one minute. All delays are unwelcome but predictable ones should be examined and solutions found.

 

It could be pointed out that back in 2009 Network Rail planned, constructed and opened a two platform station at Workington after the floods.  The Dore answer so far has been that the Capacity Scheme will resolve this very soon and in the meantime Selective Door Opening allows trains to stop as described above.  Unfortunately SDO doesn't always work and on at least a  couple of occasions recently the two 6 coach trains that should have stopped weren't allowed to and sailed straight through! Nothing is simple. The Workington track layout was much easier to work with to build temporary platforms than it would be at Dore - but it may yet happen. Politically it may be better not to go for that temporary idea, using the present position to push for completion of the whole scheme.

 

The third fast service should still happen once the work is complete but new operating companies may be involved by then! Network Rail are just tasked to provide the capacity.

 

The freight companies don't use a lot of the paths they have allocated so in the meantime they'll be looking very carefully to maximise them.

 

Sadly the BBC film last night wasn't able to go into all the details, but Dan Jarvis is very well aware of them. He knows the situation having visited the site and seen for himself.

 

To sum up, not stopped, unreasonably delayed, but it will all happen, politics permitting. Keep agitating!!

 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by 1978
Addition re freight and punctuation

[Annie Bynnol 612]

Stopped -as in no work being done.

Review to be started  that may lead to cancellation to parts or all of the projects.

No timetable improvements now until at least 2023/4.

 

The proposed use of pairs of Class 185 to Liverpool and the Airport will mean that Dore passengers will not be able to get on or off three of the carriages when it stops at Dore. 

They will have a 50 50 chance of using their seat reservation.

All passengers will only have a 50 50 chance of getting a cuppa.

No free tea for half of the first class passengers.

Which part will the Guard be in?  With no ticket checks it will be free journeys for many between Sheffield and Dore.

 

Many of us who travel regularly along the route would prefer 4 car 158s than 6 car 185s.

[Martin C 81]

3 hours ago, 1978 said:

That is not correct.

 

It's true that it has been delayed and until work starts it may be delayed again and again until it's complete. That's the way railway projects proceed whether we like it (I don't) or not.  With our present political situation anything can happen so that has to be taken into account.

 

The latest is that the project was updated and re-costed at about £145million. It includes redoubling at Dore & Totley with a new 6 carriage platform, the existing platform restored to that length (as it was until 1985), and a footbridge with two lifts. There is to be a loop between Dore West and Dore South junctions to allow a freight train to wait there between the main and Hope Valley lines. There is to be another loop just east of Bamford to allow eastbound freight services to pull in and let passenger services pass (it could also allow a slow service to be passed by a fast). The exiting Heeley loop south of Sheffield station is to be lengthened to allow more options. Signalling work for the new tracks will be improved and control from Earles Sidings moves from Manchester to York to improve co-ordination with services north and south of Dore. (Resignalling of the route  is not part of the scheme - it's in the list of things needing to be done.) A pedestrian footbridge at Hathersage West is needed to replace a pedestrian level crossing in order to comply with current operating regulations (it will also have to be electrification ready standard to be compliant).

 

At this moment invitations to tender for the work are being prepared and should be issued in the next few weeks. Contractors are allowed a period to prepare their plans and quotations which then have to be considered and the whole project re-costed to ensure it will still be within budget. It then has to be confirmed by the DfT as the commissioning agents. (That's standard for all rail projects.) The detailed phasing of the work will then be planned so necessary line blockades cause the minimum inconvenience. That means they'll almost certainly include an Easter and Christmas period, weekends and nights.  Major earthworks are not advisable in winter. By the time all this planning is complete work will probably not start until spring 2022 and be complete by autumn 2023.

 

Some feel it could be brought forward up to a year. Others fear it will slip so it's not available for any new and revised services to run before the May 2024 timetable review. I'd put money on the latter, but still hope, but don't believe, 2022 could be achieved.

 

As far as the short platform at Dore is concerned it is an irritating issue, especially when the pre-1985 platform was fine, but it currently takes 4 carriages easily . Other Hope Valley line stations at Grindleford, Hathersage and Hope are being lengthened by the end of December (it will probably slip to January!) so all can take 4 carriage Northern trains. Only this lunchtime I saw a 150 and 142 working together westbound in full passenger service, so capacity can already be provided. (There's a story to that one but I'll not digress)

 

The Dore platform needs extending now to the old signal to allow fully functioning capacity for 6 coaches.  TransPennine Express are soon to run most of their Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes  trains as 6 carriages. A few are already - including the 7.14 outbound and a return service arriving at 18.04 from Manchester. Currently passengers booking seats from Dore will find they're in the first 3 coaches, not a problem. Those without booking,s including a large number with  season tickets, will see there's space in the rear 3 which can only be entered from the two doors of coach 4, one of which may be first class. This causes a scrum on the platform going, or in the train coming back. Those two trains will dwell at Dore for at least two 2 minutes instead of the timetabled one minute. All delays are unwelcome but predictable ones should be examined and solutions found.

 

It could be pointed out that back in 2009 Network Rail planned, constructed and opened a two platform station at Workington after the floods.  The Dore answer so far has been that the Capacity Scheme will resolve this very soon and in the meantime Selective Door Opening allows trains to stop as described above.  Unfortunately SDO doesn't always work and on at least a  couple of occasions recently the two 6 coach trains that should have stopped weren't allowed to and sailed straight through! Nothing is simple. The Workington track layout was much easier to work with to build temporary platforms than it would be at Dore - but it may yet happen. Politically it may be better not to go for that temporary idea, using the present position to push for completion of the whole scheme.

 

The third fast service should still happen once the work is complete but new operating companies may be involved by then! Network Rail are just tasked to provide the capacity.

 

The freight companies don't use a lot of the paths they have allocated so in the meantime they'll be looking very carefully to maximise them.

 

Sadly the BBC film last night wasn't able to go into all the details, but Dan Jarvis is very well aware of them. He knows the situation having visited the site and seen for himself.

 

To sum up, not stopped, unreasonably delayed, but it will all happen, politics permitting. Keep agitating!!

 

 

Excellent and informative post - many thanks!

[1978 14]

23 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

Stopped -as in no work being done.

Review to be started  that may lead to cancellation to parts or all of the projects.

No timetable improvements now until at least 2023/4.

 

The proposed use of pairs of Class 185 to Liverpool and the Airport will mean that Dore passengers will not be able to get on or off three of the carriages when it stops at Dore. 

They will have a 50 50 chance of using their seat reservation.

All passengers will only have a 50 50 chance of getting a cuppa.

No free tea for half of the first class passengers.

Which part will the Guard be in?  With no ticket checks it will be free journeys for many between Sheffield and Dore.

 

Many of us who travel regularly along the route would prefer 4 car 158s than 6 car 185s.

Issues that are being taken up with Network Rail, DfT, TfN and TPE, but it's correct that 185s are not helpful to provide the refreshment service supposed to be part of the franchise agreement. Originally there was supposed to be an option to add a 4th carriage, but 6 would work better for effective capacity with 3 x 158s. The walk through 158's performance isn't as good as 185s fixed units. Note the TPE services are quicker than EMR's. If, and that's been said for too many years, TPE get what's left of the Liverpool - Nottingham route with 6 carriage 185s those journey times should be quicker.

 

Only the 8.04 TPE service picks up significant passengers at Dore for Sheffield  and is preceded by Northern's 7.57 which picks up a lot more and is far more reliable for timekeeping - that train leaves on time from Dore almost every day (it should, it is allowed an extra 7 minutes from Grindleford than most others).  It's rare for anyone to leave the westbound early morning TPE trains at Dore.

 

However, before timetable times  are reduced most users would prefer the current services to run on time. They mostly aren't. All the stations on the Hope Valley line are in the worst 100 out of over 2500 in the country for punctuality of their services.

 

See how Sheffield - Manchester services perform;   https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=Sheffield+(SHF)&To=Manchester+Piccadilly+(MAN)&TimTyp=A&TimDay=A&Days=Wk&TimPer=4w&dtFr=05%2F09%2F2019&dtTo=03%2F10%2F2019&ShwTim=AvAr&MxArCl=5&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=10&MnScCt=2

 

And it's worse coming back; https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=Manchester+Piccadilly+(MAN)&To=Sheffield+(SHF)&TimTyp=A&TimDay=A&Days=Wk&TimPer=4w&dtFr=05%2F09%2F2019&dtTo=03%2F10%2F2019&ShwTim=AvAr&MxArCl=5&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=10&MnScCt=2

 

Incidentally, work on projects isn't just the earth moving and track laying. There's an awful lot of planning work that has been, and is  being, done on this scheme. It isn't visible but it is happening.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by 1978
Added extra paragraph