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A&e What An Horrific Sight

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Borista336 said:

no point its legal they have dual citizenship but pay no tax here but when they decide they want NHS treatment its straight on the plane from Italy,  

British citizenship has nothing to do with entitlement to NHS services, nowadays.

 

Habitual residency does, UK or EEA (feel free to search "entitlement to NHS treatment by non-resident UK citizens" :))

 

If they have lived in Italy for more than 3 months in the last year, they can -should- be charged, unless they rely on an Italian EHIC.

 

Of course, if they do rely on an Italian EHIC, then they're hardly a burden on the NHS, since the NHS is refunded for their treatment by the Italian health service.

 

(that EHIC option will disappear on Brexit day, by the way...they might wish to get in quick for any last-minute treatment before Halloween :lol:)

 

But if they don't, and make out they're locals when they rock up to their NHS practice, and get the treatment without charge, then technically that's fraud.

 

Edited by L00b

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17 hours ago, L00b said:

If someone claims EU migrants contribute more as a sub-group of taxpayers, and backs that claim with factual data which proves that EU migrants contribute more as a sub-group of taxpayers, then that claim is validated.

 

So how is it misleading, pray tell? 

 

That's the whole point of the argument: NHS is free for all at the point of delivery, Brits, EU and non-EU migrants alike, and contributors to public finances that fund the NHS are just that, UK taxpayers, whether British or EU or non-EU migrants workers (and there are significantly more British taxpayers than EU and non-EU taxpayers).

 

You don't have to accept facts that fly in the face of whatever prejudices you hold: you're perfectly entitled to maintain your prejudices. We'll just draw the obvious conclusions from it, is all.

So, have you shopped that family member?

Seriously, I thought you were a bit smarter, complete logic fail, come on tell me how EU migrants contribute more as a sub group of taxpayers  ?

It's clearly not a like for like comparison, even a fool could figure that out, how on earth can EU migrants contribute more unless EU migrants are earning more, which generally a great many of them aren't.

Show me a like for like comparison, for example full time working EU migrants v full time working British !

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Michael_W said:

Show me a like for like comparison, for example full time working EU migrants v full time working British !

The governments Migration Advisory Committee has done the most research in this area:

https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-bb44-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

(as per the shorter version that's vanished from yesterday)

 

If you have data that disputes their findings feel free to post it.

 

Edited by Magilla

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Michael_W said:

Seriously, I thought you were a bit smarter, complete logic fail, come on tell me how EU migrants contribute more as a sub group of taxpayers  ?

It's clearly not a like for like comparison, even a fool could figure that out, how on earth can EU migrants contribute more unless EU migrants are earning more, which generally a great many of them aren't.

Show me a like for like comparison, for example full time working EU migrants v full time working British !

 

Contribute more per head (ie as an average), which was the original point, backed up by the linked statistics. 

 

[EDIT: Magilla's link not here anymore? Never mind, here goes: 

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-in-the-uk/ ]

 

Or had you misunderstood the original point, to mean that EU migrant workers pay more tax (in total) than UK workers? (such an interpretation is clearly nonsensical, given the vast difference between total number of British UK workers and total number of EU27 UK workers, hence why it never entered my head that anyone could understand it that way)

 

Average salaries are, or should be, in the linked statistics (if it's to the same study that I've seen time and again since the original 2016 referendum thread).

 

Show me a few thousands seasonal EU migrant fruit pickers on minimum wage, and I'll show you a few tens (hundreds?) of thousands of EU migrant nurses, doctors, engineers, traders, solicitors, digital artists, programmers, <etc>.

 

I used to be an EU migrant UK worker on very close to 6 figs on PAYE, so a significant chunk of that (plus the corpo tax on profits from my close to 7 figs caseload, substantial in our line of work) going to the Exchequer. People with a prejudiced view that EU27 workers in the UK are typically low-paid fruit pickers, cleaners and waiters always made me chuckle.

Edited by L00b

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Quote

There is no single ‘correct’ estimate of migrants’ fiscal impact. Different studies make different assumptions and not everyone will agree on what the best choices to make are (see ‘Understanding the Evidence,’ above). Studies examining the fiscal impact of migrants have produced different results, although in all cases, the impacts have been estimated at less than +/- 1% of GDP.

Just pinched and quoted a small part of your link, the first sentence sums it up nicely for me ….. fake news fail, we can argue all day but your own point about your own scenario makes it clear, so until there are like for like examples, it's quite obvious that if it's true, it's probably true that it would be the case in every other EU country also !

Wrong argument for/and detracting from this thread though IMHO.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Michael_W said:

Just pinched and quoted a small part of your link, the first sentence sums it up nicely for me ….. fake news fail, we can argue all day but your own point about your own scenario makes it clear, so until there are like for like examples, it's quite obvious that if it's true, it's probably true that it would be the case in every other EU country also !

Wrong argument for/and detracting from this thread though IMHO.

It would be pointless to compare UK with every other EU country, since they have very varying sizes of population, very varying immigration profiles, and very varying public healthcare systems ;) 

 

If you take Lux where I am now, which is a fully-fledged EU member state, there are more migrant workers in the country in the daytime (adding up non-Lux residents and daytime crossborder workers), than there are nationals of the country at any given time. Just reflect for a minute about that fact. Then look at the resident population's level of confidence in the EU according to the latest Eurostat poll published today (93%, top of all EU28 members).

 

I didn't make the original argument/point, btw. Just defended it as factually correct.

 

You can't hope to improve the NHS, and A&E within it, without serious amounts of introspection about its structure and running (already raised by other posters), and further amounts of introspection about where its funding is coming from, including accepting objective facts of taxpaying life in the UK.

 

Or you can continue to shrink your contributing taxbase and qualified staffing, like you did with me, all those EU27 nurses and GPs and consultants who already left in last 3 years, all those ex-City EU27 HNWIs who have already been redeployed to Dublin/Paris/Frankfurt/NewYork <etc> ...

 

...and so end up with ever less NHS and money for it.

Edited by L00b

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23 hours ago, pattricia said:

 I’ve seen patients relatives bring a take a way in for them.! 

 

20 hours ago, nikki-red said:

Its not just happening in A&E tho, it happens on the wards every day.

I had to stay in for five days. It was hell. The things I saw on that ward really opened my eyes. Take aways twice a day (plus family brought home cooked breakfast every day at 7.30am) it was unreal. 

Ringing the buzzer for nurses for Orange squash with four adult visitors sat playing on their phones.

Nurses facing real hostility and anger, being shouted at for no reason they can help.

This was just the bed opposite.

It was bordering on intimidating just being there. I'm never staying in again. I've had two surgeries since at the day surgery ward and that was bad enough.

I have no complaints with the staff, they need bloody medals.

I couldn't face that every day.

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Not to mention the time wasters attending with sore throats, colds and headaches who couldn’t wait until the chemists opened the next morning and were the loudest complaining about the wait

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9 hours ago, catmiss said:

Not to mention the time wasters attending with sore throats, colds and headaches who couldn’t wait until the chemists opened the next morning and were the loudest complaining about the wait

Also the drunks and drug addicts asleep on two chairs overnight.! They always pick Saturday night when it’s the busiest.!

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2 hours ago, pattricia said:

Also the drunks and drug addicts asleep on two chairs overnight.! They always pick Saturday night when it’s the busiest.!

People like you with zero medical training are able to safely triage patients based on how they look is a reasonable opinion because?

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3 hours ago, pattricia said:

They always pick Saturday night when it’s the busiest.!

I don’t think anyone chooses to go to hospital. 🙄

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57 minutes ago, Albert the Cat said:

People like you with zero medical training are able to safely triage patients based on how they look is a reasonable opinion because?

How come she is a State Registered Nurse :huh:.

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