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Should Ved Be On Fuel For Private Cars?

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On 20/07/2019 at 11:26, Janus said:

I would like to see the VED being abolished, and the duty being transferred to fuel for private cars.

I can imagine that there are some people doing very few miles per  annum, yet paying the same as someone doing in excess of 30k per annum.

Would this have a big impact on reducing emissions? I think it would. Cleaner air for everyone.

It would no doubt increase fuel thefts. However, it would get rid of the problem of "untaxed" private vehicles.


The more we polute the more we pay. What hidden agenda if any, could be stopping the government from introducing   this.

 

Yes, this makes perfect sense and has done for years.

The charge for VED is meant to be linked to pollution, so by applying it to fuel less efficient cars pay more, but also motorists who do more miles pay more, and it's also impossible to avoid paying it.

We can then do away with the bureaucracy of taxing cars and save a little bit of money (government spending on all those jobs and systems).

On 20/07/2019 at 18:28, willman said:

no idea why its VED free but it is, so thats all i care about tbh.

I assume its because the VED is proportional to the pollution my car causes.

Presumably this means that it's also really efficient, and so you would still pay less fuel tax than someone with a less efficient car.  BUT, you would be charged proportional to your usage, unlike now.

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14 minutes ago, L00b said:

How do you propose to continue funding road network maintenance and upgrades, as fewer and fewer ICE cars remain in use over time?

General taxation perhaps...  Or the new car purchase tax, or perhaps the VAT charged on purchasing cars...  Either way the electric vehicles won't be paying VED, so the income from it (either as is, or transferred to fuel) is going to decline.

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Does anyone have a theory or maybe just an opinion, of why   there does not seem to be  any move towards the idea by the gov,  as far as I know.

I specifically focused on private cars. I didn't want the subject to get messy in respect of commercial vehicles and the potential  myriad opinions in that area.

 

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33 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

Yes, this makes perfect sense and has done for years.

The charge for VED is meant to be linked to pollution, so by applying it to fuel less efficient cars pay more, but also motorists who do more miles pay more, and it's also impossible to avoid paying it.

We can then do away with the bureaucracy of taxing cars and save a little bit of money (government spending on all those jobs and systems).

Presumably this means that it's also really efficient, and so you would still pay less fuel tax than someone with a less efficient car.  BUT, you would be charged proportional to your usage, unlike now.

I'm charged proportional now - cheaper fuel and only pay for the fuel efficiency that i invested in.

 Why should i want to pay more for more expensive fuel? (i.e if the additional revenue was added to fuel)

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I suppose it entirely depends on whether you look at it from a personal (selfish) point of view?  Or what's best for the country and environment and most fair to the larger number of drivers.

 

I can totally appreciate that you'd like your VED to remain at £0.  But hopefully if you step outside your own concern, you can also see that moving VED to fuel would be a more fair system overall.

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2 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

I suppose it entirely depends on whether you look at it from a personal (selfish) point of view?  Or what's best for the country and environment and most fair to the larger number of drivers.

 

I can totally appreciate that you'd like your VED to remain at £0.  But hopefully if you step outside your own concern, you can also see that moving VED to fuel would be a more fair system overall.

But you're wrong - i bought diesel cars because i was advised by the Govt they were better for the environment,20 years later i'm under pressure to reconcile the fact the experts were wrong. So i buy a VED free car (in 2015) as the most efficient type of fuel car as a measure of my concern for pollution, now you want me to stop being selfish and buy another car just because someone else wants to put the tax on fuel.

How many other people have been this selfish?

 

Let everyone else buy a VED free car then we're all on an equal footing and everyone will have been as selfish as me.

 

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1 hour ago, Janus said:

Does anyone have a theory or maybe just an opinion, of why   there does not seem to be  any move towards the idea by the gov,  as far as I know.

I specifically focused on private cars. I didn't want the subject to get messy in respect of commercial vehicles and the potential  myriad opinions in that area.

 

Any government that proposes the change to additional duty on fuel knows it is a complete vote loser, all the red tops and petrolheads will scream "war on motorist" and no party wants to bite that bullet. Hence successive governments waiving the fuel duty escalator. However, at some point, the pattern of vehicle usage will force a party to do something different, but they're all hoping it won't be them that has to do it. As you say, commercial vehicles are different, and the haulage industry is very powerful.

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1 hour ago, willman said:

But you're wrong - i bought diesel cars because i was advised by the Govt they were better for the environment,20 years later i'm under pressure to reconcile the fact the experts were wrong. So i buy a VED free car (in 2015) as the most efficient type of fuel car as a measure of my concern for pollution, now you want me to stop being selfish and buy another car just because someone else wants to put the tax on fuel.

How many other people have been this selfish?

 

Let everyone else buy a VED free car then we're all on an equal footing and everyone will have been as selfish as me.

 

I'm wrong that you can see things from another point of view?  Well, that's entirely possible I suppose.

 

I don't want you to stop being selfish, I don't care a little bit.  So long as you recognise that your argument is from a selfish point of view and not from that of an impartial one I don't really care.

14 minutes ago, stifflersmom said:

Any government that proposes the change to additional duty on fuel knows it is a complete vote loser, all the red tops and petrolheads will scream "war on motorist" and no party wants to bite that bullet. Hence successive governments waiving the fuel duty escalator. However, at some point, the pattern of vehicle usage will force a party to do something different, but they're all hoping it won't be them that has to do it. As you say, commercial vehicles are different, and the haulage industry is very powerful.

Assuming they made it revenue neutral then approx 50% of drivers should actually benefit from the change though (all those who drive < average miles).

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25 minutes ago, stifflersmom said:

Any government that proposes the change to additional duty on fuel knows it is a complete vote loser, all the red tops and petrolheads will scream "war on motorist" and no party wants to bite that bullet. Hence successive governments waiving the fuel duty escalator. However, at some point, the pattern of vehicle usage will force a party to do something different, but they're all hoping it won't be them that has to do it. As you say, commercial vehicles are different, and the haulage industry is very powerful.

The fuel duty escalator is  just a nonsense IMO. Introduce it once and its grudgingly accepted, then at every budget we can express our gratitude that its been 'waived' again.

Why not just introduce an escalator on every tax and duty then be showered with praise every time its 'waived'...

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1 hour ago, willman said:

But you're wrong - i bought diesel cars because i was advised by the Govt they were better for the environment,20 years later i'm under pressure to reconcile the fact the experts were wrong. So i buy a VED free car (in 2015) as the most efficient type of fuel car as a measure of my concern for pollution, now you want me to stop being selfish and buy another car just because someone else wants to put the tax on fuel.

How many other people have been this selfish?

 

Let everyone else buy a VED free car then we're all on an equal footing and everyone will have been as selfish as me.

 

I am feeling that you seem to have fixed or rigid views, or at least that is how it comes across. I don`t think anyone is  wanting you to buy another car.

 

You bought a diesel car like many people did-I have a polluting diesel car too. You then bought another car that still produced pollution, although less pollution than a diesel,  and probably much less than most petrol cars hence your zero VED. You improved your situation in terms of your carbon footprint-that’s good. There is an opportunity available for you to improve further, but you don’t have to-you still have the choice like the rest of us.

 

If additional duty is introduced on fuel in say a couple years, you and everyone else will have a choice. You can continue driving the low polluting car that you currently have, or make some changes. You are no different to anyone else in that the information has been available to all of us, and at the same time. Presumably we all made a decision based on such information. Do you see the situation a little clearer?

 

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Currently VED brings in just under £7bn, fuel duty brings in just under £28bn.

Historically fuel duty income is actually down about £10bn from a peak around the millennium, it's already a shrinking income source.

 

You're looking at increasing fuel duty over 20% to recoup the lost VED tax, knowing fuel duty income is ever decreasing.

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I think there's a fundamental flaw in the inherent assumptions at play in this discussion in as much as people seem to think that VED and fuel duty are somehow designed to pay for roads, they aren't.  

As the house of commons transport committee puts it

Quote

We entirely understand that motorists do not like paying tax – nobody 
does. However, trying to create a balance between motoring taxes and 
expenditure on roads is not a good way to make public policy or a basis 
for major public expenditure decisions. Road investment should be 
justified on wider transport policy objectives, needs and benefits.

As with all taxes, the best way to prevent avoidance is to spread the costs in multiple ways.  VED is higher on big cars mostly because drivers of big cars can afford to pay a bit more tax.

 

Roads are largely paid for, not from general taxation, but from council tax. 

 

Indeed the costs of motoring, roads, pollution, injuries and related issues result in a subsidy from tax payers to motorists. Reflecting these costs in fuel duty alone would be over 15p/km or a pump price, based on average mpg of over £2.70 per litre.

 

All that said, I'd like to see VED or some other tax include some element of vehicle weight and therefore road damage caused.

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