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Sheffield Clean Air Zone

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, *_ash_* said:

Of course in the online pamphlet for public isn't too forthcoming with details like this.

 

Interestingly, although the veolia page has lots of info, it is quite sketchy... e.g. the monthly figures just show 'THE % OF EMISSIONS LIMIT' - however, it's hard to find what the 'THE LIMITS' are - I had to google that to an EU page, which says the the levels are set at 'the gas in mg / m3'... and nothing about how much of it you can spew out?! Perhaps you or someone else knows.

 

-

 

Also, let's not forget buses. £50 per bus per day.

 

I'm sure there are some bus experts on the forum. Any idea of how many this is roughly?

 

Cllr Scott said taxis and buses could not put up the prices to compensate. Although they can restrict hackney fares, can they do this with buses?

 

PHV taxis will put up price to compensate, I would think buses will too... does anyone think they will encourage people out of their cars?

The bolded bit - so how are hackney drivers supposed to fund this - out of thin air? Both First and Stagecoach  make little or nothing from their South Yorkshire operations and although I don't and never have worked for them. I have friends at both firms who tell me they - the holding companys - could pull out, as First did in London when the operation became uneconomic.

 

Who is going to find that many (I'll see if I can find the fleet sizes later) E6 DDA compliant vehicles in a couple of weeks? NO-ONE. Cllr. Scott, as usual for our local administration, is talking suicide.

 

FSY fleet size 406 vehicles, Stagecoach Yorkshire 416 vehicles - but that includes a number of non-stage carriage coaches.

Edited by RollingJ
Added detail.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, RollingJ said:

The bolded bit - so how are hackney drivers supposed to fund this - out of thin air? Both First and Stagecoach  make little or nothing from their South Yorkshire operations and although I don't and never have worked for them. I have friends at both firms who tell me they - the holding companys - could pull out, as First did in London when the operation became uneconomic.

 

Who is going to find that many (I'll see if I can find the fleet sizes later) E6 DDA compliant vehicles in a couple of weeks? NO-ONE. Cllr. Scott, as usual for our local administration, is talking suicide.

Hackneys will just run their licenses (in Sheffield 15 year limit) out and either retire, move to PHV or do something else. £65k just is not feasible for the new ones. Amazing as they are, as I said earlier. Then again at that price I should chuffin think so! It's just too posh and overengineered for taxi.

 

Although a complete guess, one possible alternative is that as in SCC we are dual licensed (i.e any Sheffield driver can drive a Hackney or PHV) I think a possible move will be that some PHVs might be able to acquire 'Hackney' status - i.e allowed to be hailed. They'll need to do something, as even with phones, apps, internets, people still want to hail down a lift from a licensed vehicle. This might involve a certain type of car only, and have a set livery.

 

-

 

This is bad news for wheelchair users, who already receive a poor service in many cases in Sheffield because the city isn't big enough to have cabs driving around all day, and not enough fares, hence fight for limited ranking spots and station permits.

 

Edited by *_ash_*

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, *_ash_* said:

Hackneys will just run their licenses (in Sheffield 15 year limit) out and either retire, move to PHV or do something else. £65k just is not feasible for the new ones. Amazing as they are, as I said earlier. Then again at that price I should chuffin think so! It's just too posh and overengineered for taxi.

 

Although a complete guess, one possible alternative is that as in SCC we are dual licensed (i.e any Sheffield driver can drive a Hackney or PHV) I think a possible move will be that some PHVs might be able to acquire 'Hackney' status - i.e allowed to be hailed. They'll need to do something, as even with phones, apps, internets, people still want to hail down a lift from a licensed vehicle. This might involve a certain type of car only, and have a set livery.

 

-

 

This is bad news for wheelchair users, who already receive a poor service in many cases in Sheffield because the city isn't big enough to have cabs driving around all day, and not enough fares, hence fight for limited ranking spots and station permits.

Thanks for that @*_ash_* - I know quite a lot about the bus industry as it is one of my 'hobbies', but little to nothing of the Hackney/PHV operations.

 

It is irrelevant what was actually said by whom, IMHO, - the council like to talk big and act little

Edited by RollingJ

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1 minute ago, RollingJ said:

Thanks for that @*_ash_* - I know quite a lot about the bus industry as it is one of my 'hobbies', but little to nothing of the Hackney/PHV operations.

No problem. I'm also interested in collecting data, and transport obviously interests me anyway!!

 

Not many people understand the taxi licensing. It's not interesting to most people of course! People want to just ring a number or tap an app, and don't care about anything other than one place to another.

 

I'm definitely interested in the bus numbers. I have no idea, but a rough guess would be somewhere around 300 per day enter the CAZ. The maths will then be interesting when looking at what it will cost them, and what their current profits are. That should give us a good indication of potential price rises.

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, *_ash_* said:

Of course in the online pamphlet for public isn't too forthcoming with details like this.

 

Interestingly, although the veolia page has lots of info, it is quite sketchy... e.g. the monthly figures just show 'THE % OF EMISSIONS LIMIT' - however, it's hard to find what the 'THE LIMITS' are - I had to google that to an EU page, which says the the levels are set at 'the gas in mg / m3'... and nothing about how much of it you can spew out?! Perhaps you or someone else knows.

 

-

 

Also, let's not forget buses. £50 per bus per day.

 

I'm sure there are some bus experts on the forum. Any idea of how many this is roughly?

 

Cllr Scott said taxis and buses could not put up the prices to compensate. Although they can restrict hackney fares, can they do this with buses?

 

PHV taxis will put up price to compensate, I would think buses will too... does anyone think they will encourage people out of their cars?

The limits are there young man... 

 

Limit 200mg per m³...the Veolia plant runs at an average 180mg/m³... 90%

 

Average NOx emissions 6.975g/per second, taken from the flow rate per second. 

 

What's that mean... 😱

 

Ash... I wouldn't mind people looking at the allowance for Euro 6 diesel emissions, they have been set at around 80mg/km MAX...! 

 

Just put it in consideration, that'd be like driving a Euro 6 diesel vehicle for 87km... 

 

'What this plant emits in one second'...if you do the calculations, you'll find out how many Euro 6 diesels you can run for 87km in each 24hr period... 

 

But look at the actual concentration of the NOx, it leaves the (chimney) stack at around 19.75m/per second,at an average heat of 175°C...I'm not going to take any second chances...this isn't like 180mg in atmospheric condition, air saturation...what actually happens when this cools down...

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, *_ash_* said:

No problem. I'm also interested in collecting data, and transport obviously interests me anyway!!

 

Not many people understand the taxi licensing. It's not interesting to most people of course! People want to just ring a number or tap an app, and don't care about anything other than one place to another.

 

I'm definitely interested in the bus numbers. I have no idea, but a rough guess would be somewhere around 300 per day enter the CAZ. The maths will then be interesting when looking at what it will cost them, and what their current profits are. That should give us a good indication of potential price rises.

 

 

 

 

FSY fleet size 406 vehicles, Stagecoach Yorkshire 416 vehicles - but that includes a number of non-stage carriage coaches.

 

Obviously not all used at once, but it gives an idea of what they would have to find if they both pulled out

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Posted (edited)

I'm just chatting with the Chairman of ALPHA, Lee Ward (he runs a taxi association in Sheffield)

 

and let me read, and allow to share a potential mistake on the web page and the email shot.

 

The site says this:

Quote

What we’re proposing to do

To reduce pollution as fast as possible, we need to introduce a clean air zone. This will charge the most polluting vehicles for entering the city centre.

Under these proposals, we need the most polluting taxis, vans, HGVs, buses and coaches to upgrade. These are currently 20% of the vehicles on our roads but cause 50% of the NO₂ pollution.  To help support people who depend on a vehicle for their livelihood, we are proposing  range of support packages.

email: (sorry doesn't copy and paste well)

 

Quote
Subject: Re: Join the Clean Air Conversation
To: <alerts@subscriptions.sheffield.gov.uk>

 

 

This email is not factual in regards to pollutants caused by bus, taxi, private hire, Van's and lorries.
The total percentage for these vehicle fleets is 19% not 20%
The pollution contribution is 12.5% and not 50%
Please recall that email due to the serious discrepancies noted and email again with factual figures.
Thank you
Lee

I've tried to work out what the correct wording should be, I think is correct:

 

original on site: These [taxis/buses/goods] are currently 20% of the vehicles on our roads but cause 50% of the NO₂ pollution.

 

My alteration: These are currently 19% of the vehicles on our roads but cause 12.5% of the 50% of the NO₂ pollution that transport generates in the city.

 

This sounds more accurate. About 1/5th of the vehicles cause 1/4 of the pollution. So consequently 4/5th cause 3/4 of the pollution. If this isn't enough to say that YOU'RE ALL NEXT, I don't know what is.

 

 

Edited by *_ash_*

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13 minutes ago, *_ash_* said:

I'm just chatting with the Chairman of ALPHA, Lee Ward (he runs a taxi association in Sheffield)

 

and let me read, and allow to share a potential mistake on the web page and the email shot.

 

The site says this:

email: (sorry doesn't copy and paste well)

 

I've tried to work out what the correct wording should be, I think is correct:

 

original on site: These [taxis/buses/goods] are currently 20% of the vehicles on our roads but cause 50% of the NO₂ pollution.

 

My alteration: These are currently 19% of the vehicles on our roads but cause 12.5% of the 50% of the NO₂ pollution that transport generates in the city.

 

This sounds more accurate. About 1/5th of the vehicles cause 1/4 of the pollution. So consequently 4/5th cause 3/4 of the pollution. If this isn't enough to say that YOU'RE ALL NEXT, I don't know what is.

 

 

So, as we expect from this council, twisted, incorrect 'facts':rant:

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50 minutes ago, RollingJ said:

The bolded bit - so how are hackney drivers supposed to fund this - out of thin air?

I've just received this message from Alpha, which I've seen in full (i.e. a whole breakdown of the number of years left before Hackney vehicle retirement, but to put it short, as no one is interested in the full figures! :hihi:

 

Quote

In 2021 when this comes into force.. 800 of the 857 WAV will not be able to work due to the extra overheads. The 50 or so that will work will not be there 24/7 and during the day will be busy with NHS contracts... leaving all other W/C bound people without transport

For me, even best estimates is that not many will buy the new cab.

 

No one has yet (individually) and they've been out for a year or do.

 

Any individual who pays 65k for a cab in Sheffield, is deluded, IMO. I can't see any taking this up. Not one.  Each year the number will go down as vehicles retired, until just a few companies leases. Easier to get a Euro 6 diesel LGV with wheelchair access (but no ability to hail) - as these (even though same as current euro taxis, ARE exempt.

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I will be retiring in 4 years time and will not be buying or leasing a 60k electric cab in the meantime .idealy yes,realistically no.with uber going round charging 20 year old prices then the job is dead 

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Ps remember uber are loosing millions of £ per day. I can't compete with that!

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15 hours ago, *_ash_* said:

I'm definitely interested in the bus numbers. I have no idea, but a rough guess would be somewhere around 300 per day enter the CAZ. The maths will then be interesting when looking at what it will cost them, and what their current profits are. That should give us a good indication of potential price rises.

 

 

 

 

I think you might be amazed by how many trips there actually are per day.

 

All the local authorities in South Yorkshire collect cordon count data on one day per year to provide a consistent data set. It's organised by SYPTE.

 

You can find the data for each year on here: https://www.cyclesheffield.org.uk/sheffield-transport-data/

 

Underneath the mode share for 2018 table, there's a link ot download the data set.

 

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