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Sheffield Clean Air Zone

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I see the charging zone INCLUDES the Inner Ring Road. Genius move by SCC. Not. That won't cause congestion in the areas immediately OUTSIDE the IRR, now will it children?

 

For example, let's say you are going to one of the hospitals. If your journey currently includes driving part of the way on the IRR, no problem. In future, when cars are charged, (as they inevitably will be - and I dare planner1 to say such a scenario WON'T happen because we all know it will with this short-sighted, car-hating, money-grabbing council), then you'll be stumping up a tenner, (or more?), for the joy of driving possibly around a mile or less on the IRR.

 

So what will you do to avoid the charge, particularly if it's a journey you make frequently, or even twice daily? You'll join everyone else who is trying to find a route through Crookes and Broomhall, won't you? Then, when the residents of those parts of the city kick off to the council about all the extra traffic, SCC will start closing roads in those areas, making this "CARS ARE EVIL" rat-running impossible. And making it even harder for people to get around than it already is.

 

The ultimate aim being to force everyone onto the IRR and generate a nice pot of cash for SCC. Of course, any incident will cause gridock but planner1's mates at the council will say something trite along the grounds of, "Traffic generally flows well", giving the gridlock situations the Nelson's eye treatment. Like I said, genius move. Don't believe me, take a look at Upper Allen Street, which used to be a very useful alternative to Netherthorpe Road at times when that was at a stand still due to, say, a bus breaking down somewhere in the city centre, causing general mayhem and gridlock. So what have SCC done to this alternative route? Google Maps is your friend.

 

Alternatively, let's say you want to pick up/drop off someone at Midland Station - that'll cost you a tenner as you'll be driving on the IRR to get there. The fact that there's 30 minutes free parking in the multi-storey at the side of the station? Well whoop-dee-do, what a big saving that will be. I'd venture that many pick-ups/drop-offs for the station in future will occur on South Street. Don't know where that is? Look it up. Oh, and I don't doubt for a single second that SCC will impose some Draconian parking restrictions on South Street in future to deter car drivers from using it to avoid SCC's incompetently thought out CAZ.

 

In short, if SCC had even the tiniest scrap of sense, (oh look, a flying porker has just gone past the window), the IRR would NOT be part of the CAZ. But then they wouldn't make as much money out of it, would they children? Which is not the object of the exercise, goodness me no, it would be wrong to think that. Yes. Right.

 

As I said in an earlier post, the good burghers of the towns surrounding Sheffield must be rubbing their hands in glee at all the extra business and jobs that will be coming their way. Sheffield though? Oh it's screwed, completely and utterly screwed if this CAZ  is implemented in the currently proposed form.

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37 minutes ago, Weredoomed said:

I see the charging zone INCLUDES the Inner Ring Road. Genius move by SCC. Not. That won't cause congestion in the areas immediately OUTSIDE the IRR, now will it children?

 

For example, let's say you are going to one of the hospitals. If your journey currently includes driving part of the way on the IRR, no problem. In future, when cars are charged, (as they inevitably will be - and I dare planner1 to say such a scenario WON'T happen because we all know it will with this short-sighted, car-hating, money-grabbing council), then you'll be stumping up a tenner, (or more?), for the joy of driving possibly around a mile or less on the IRR.

 

 

Anyone who thinks cars won't be charged eventually is a grade A idiot.

Public transport costs is going to sky-rocket. Practically all routes out of Olive Grove are in the CAZ zone. The few routes that don't are residential and will take most buses off the direct path to their terminus points, which will increase travel times to them in a morning so extra wages, earlier starts and a fleet of buses going past houses at 4am. Residents will love that one.

 

Because of this car use in the city will increase.

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Posted (edited)
On 25/07/2019 at 13:49, Planner1 said:

And here’s the problem. You’re a driver and think you know what will happen, because you think you know better than the people who are actually paid to design traffic schemes and work out what will happen. Every driver thinks they are a transport planner.

 

The Council employ professional traffic engineers who have sophisticated and very expensive traffic models which will simulate what will happen. So, they’ve modelled the outcomes and clearly aren’t worried. I’d trust their judgement.

 

you also should recognise that moving traffic as quick as possible isn’t what makes a city attractive. Placemaking plays a big part in that. That’s what’s happening at Castlegate.

And here's the problem. When the Inner Ring Road was finished off a few years ago Corporation Street  towards Mowbray Street was made a dual carriageway, with 2 lanes heading towards the Parkway. Which was fine, EXCEPT that in it's old, pre-IRR configuration, there were 3 lanes available to traffic and fewer traffic signals as well.

 

Come the shiny new IRR and what do we get. 2 lanes and lots of traffic signals - result, a highly congested bit of road. But oh so very carefully designed and modelled by SCC's paid experts. Now correct me if I'm wrong planner1 but a throughput reduction of 33% (more when the traffic signal delays are considered), is a good thing how exactly?

 

Doesn't take an expert to see that would make the situation worse. So one might venture that planner1's much-vaunted professional traffic engineers are not actually experts at all, but merely technicians using inaccurate, flawed software that is not fit for purpose. Which is presumably why what appear to be widening works are underway on there now?

 

Trust their obviously flawed judgement? Do you think that's wise? They aren't worried because they just don't care, perhaps they don't go home that way and thus don't "enjoy" the "delights" of the IRR? And we know well that moving traffic as quickly as possible isn't a good thing. That's why SCC does it's damnedest to make it go as slowly as possible - which they are exceptionally good at doing. This slow moving traffic doesn't do anything for the air quality but never fear, SCC now have a plan to make some cash out of their incompetence, so it's all good, eh?

Edited by Weredoomed

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Posted (edited)
On 08/08/2019 at 09:42, Weredoomed said:

Come the shiny new IRR and what do we get. 2 lanes and lots of traffic signals - result, a highly congested bit of road. But oh so very carefully designed and modelled by SCC's paid experts. Now correct me if I'm wrong planner1 but a throughput reduction of 33% (more when the traffic signal delays are considered), is a good thing how exactly?

 

When the IRR was constructed, most people I spoke to (and I have  friend who uses it every day to get to and from work) said that it took a good 10 minutes off their previous journey time at peak times, so I don't believe you are correct in saying it made things worse. What has happened is traffic levels have increased, as they have generally around the country.

Edited by Planner1

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On 08/08/2019 at 09:42, Weredoomed said:

 That's why SCC does it's damnedest to make it go as slowly as possible - which they are exceptionally good at doing. This slow moving traffic doesn't do anything for the air quality but never fear, SCC now have a plan to make some cash out of their incompetence, so it's all good, eh?

That really is utter nonsense. SCC have a Traffic Control team whose job it is to make traffic flow as well as possible. They use state of the art urban traffic control systems and have a network of traffic cameras to monitor how traffic is flowing. 

 

Traffic in cities everywhere is congested at peak times. I'd say Sheffield is better than most.

 

How are Sheffield going to make money out of congestion? The Clean Air Zone is nothing whatsoever to do with making money. It's been imposed by government. SCC are just doing what they have to do.

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1 hour ago, Planner1 said:

That really is utter nonsense. SCC have a Traffic Control team whose job it is to make traffic flow as well as possible. They use state of the art urban traffic control systems and have a network of traffic cameras to monitor how traffic is flowing. 

 

Traffic in cities everywhere is congested at peak times. I'd say Sheffield is better than most.

 

How are Sheffield going to make money out of congestion? The Clean Air Zone is nothing whatsoever to do with making money. It's been imposed by government. SCC are just doing what they have to do.

...and traffic in Sheffield is certainly more at risk of gridlock, due to SCC's stated desire to, "Concentrating traffic onto the Inner Ring Road is a key and long held part of the City Council‟s strategy to managing levels of motor traffic in the city centre." taken from SCC's online document:

http://democracy.sheffield.gov.uk/documents/s33612/Inner Ring Road Consultation Report.pdf

 

"Concentrating traffic" = putting all your eggs in one basket, see my earlier comment re Upper Allen Street for example. The long term strategy is badly flawed. Not that SCC would ever admit it of course.

 

So where does the CAZ charge go to, if not into SCC's coffers? If SCC aren't interested in the money, where will they send it? 

 

If SCC were truly concerned about air quality, they would NOT include the IRR in the scheme, only the roads in the city centre WITHIN the IRR. But they won't do that, will they, because to do so would reduce their income.

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On 08/08/2019 at 09:42, Resident said:

Anyone who thinks cars won't be charged eventually is a grade A idiot.

Public transport costs is going to sky-rocket. Practically all routes out of Olive Grove are in the CAZ zone. The few routes that don't are residential and will take most buses off the direct path to their terminus points, which will increase travel times to them in a morning so extra wages, earlier starts and a fleet of buses going past houses at 4am. Residents will love that one.

 

Because of this car use in the city will increase.

Oooo, no, no, no Resident, how dare you suggest our "betters" at SCC (and planner1) are wrong, because, in the la-la land that SCC inhabit, everyone will buy a bike and cycle everywhere. In a very hilly city with an ageing population. Yes. Right. Naturally.

 

Yay, let's all be green and save the planet...

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I wonder how many people realise the proposed emissions zone encompasses the inner ring road, surely this is a retrograde step in that any future legislation say to include cars will create chaos on the very road built to allow vehicles of all types some free movement. I have written to the main councillor about the emissions created by buses and suggested all through routed buses are stopped at the ring road and returned to start point then the  City transfer would be by the tram or new small electric or hydrogen vehicles. this would not need the number plate recognition equipment and costs would mainly be bourn by bus operators but no reply is forthcoming so it appears we go along the expensive/restrictive path our Council has always followed. 

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Don't worry be happy.im dreaming of a £60k taxi.maybe the council will somehow miraculously help me (I'm in bed asleep!)

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2 hours ago, bigshel said:

I wonder how many people realise the proposed emissions zone encompasses the inner ring road, surely this is a retrograde step in that any future legislation say to include cars will create chaos on the very road built to allow vehicles of all types some free movement. I have written to the main councillor about the emissions created by buses and suggested all through routed buses are stopped at the ring road and returned to start point then the  City transfer would be by the tram or new small electric or hydrogen vehicles. this would not need the number plate recognition equipment and costs would mainly be bourn by bus operators but no reply is forthcoming so it appears we go along the expensive/restrictive path our Council has always followed. 

Just remember how much cash this will put in the council's coffers. EVERYTHING else is secondary.

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7 hours ago, Planner1 said:
  •  

 

 

How are Sheffield going to make money out of congestion? The Clean Air Zone is nothing whatsoever to do with making money. It's been imposed by government. SCC are just doing what they have to do.

ah bless em. Not arguing it much though are they?

 

Very convenient, because when every one else gets charged it, then they can keep the Tories out of Sheffield by saying 'THEY did it, not us'

 

-

 

Also, are the government stating which categories or do SCC have a call on this matter? :)

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5 hours ago, Weredoomed said:

...and traffic in Sheffield is certainly more at risk of gridlock, due to SCC's stated desire to, "Concentrating traffic onto the Inner Ring Road is a key and long held part of the City Council‟s strategy to managing levels of motor traffic in the city centre." taken from SCC's online document:

http://democracy.sheffield.gov.uk/documents/s33612/Inner Ring Road Consultation Report.pdf

 

"Concentrating traffic" = putting all your eggs in one basket, see my earlier comment re Upper Allen Street for example. The long term strategy is badly flawed. Not that SCC would ever admit it of course.

 

So where does the CAZ charge go to, if not into SCC's coffers? If SCC aren't interested in the money, where will they send it? 

 

If SCC were truly concerned about air quality, they would NOT include the IRR in the scheme, only the roads in the city centre WITHIN the IRR. But they won't do that, will they, because to do so would reduce their income.

Having an inner ring road and concentrating traffic on it is the traffic management strategy employed by most major cities in the world. It is not desirable to have through traffic going right through the centre of your city.

 

The main roads in any city in the world are busy at peak traffic times and there will be problems if there is a breakdown or collision blocking lanes. It happens everywhere. No-one can get the money to build big enough roads to have reserve capacity to ensure traffic flows well under any eventuality.

 

The CAZ charges will eventually come to SCC after the government have taken out their costs.  SCC are very restricted in what they can do with it (just like they are with parking or bus lane fines). They will have large expenses in running the system and maintaining it. Also, the revenues will fall over time as older vehicles are naturally replaced with newer, less polluting  ones. 

 

From the outline business case:

 

"However, the aim is for the revenue to initially be as low as possible and for it to then fall as quickly as possible, because the aim of the scheme is to remove the non-compliant ‘dirty’ vehicles from the local traffic as quickly as possible, not to generate a revenue stream.  Care is therefore, required when considering any potential benefits which might be generated by schemes funded by the charging revenue.  This will limit the ability to fund other things, particularly given the ongoing maintenance and management costs of the CAZ infrastructure / back office systems and the need to fund the costs associated with the potential removal of the infrastructure from 2025. 
   
 The charging revenue stream is assumed to cover the operating cost of the local back office system (responsible for chasing up payment of fines from any non-compliant vehicles seen in the Charging Area without having paid the daily charge) and the cost of removing the cameras at the end of the CAZ Charging period (assumed here to be December 2024), as the our modelling suggests that Business as Usual fleet renewal will achieve area-wide compliance by 2025"

 

So, they are assuming they will cover costs and that the system will be decommissioned by 2025 as it won't be needed anymore. So, it isn't going to be a major income stream and don't forget, this isn't a money making idea they have come up with. The government have made them do it.

 

21 minutes ago, *_ash_* said:

Also, are the government stating which categories or do SCC have a call on this matter? :)

The government are telling them that they have to introduce measures to make the city compliant with the law within the specified timescale. SCC have to convince hem that the level of CAZ proposed will do the job.

 

1 hour ago, Weredoomed said:

Just remember how much cash this will put in the council's coffers.

Go on then, tell us how much.

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