Deep Fake

[bendix 10]

16 hours ago, Voice of reason said:

 

Now, if you are saying the younger generation are less intellectually curious, and therefore older ones more intellectually curious, would it not also hold true that this older Leave voters had been able to sort out good sources of information, whereas the younger Remainers hadn't?

I have said nothing of the sort.  Specifically i have not suggested that because the young are not intellectually curious, then the old necessarily are.   Herein lies one of the problems of modern debate; particularly online debate.  Too many people scribe views to others that are not, in fact, held.  This is done by taking one aspect of a proposition and amplifying it to prove a wider theory, while ignoring anything that disproves it.

 

Karl Popper would have a field day here.  He argued that there are no scientific 'facts', only theories (ie opinions) which have yet to be verfied.  This is because when we have opinions, our natural instinct is to find evidence that supports it whereas in fact the true pursuit of knowledge is only achieved by doing the exact opposite - find ways to destroy your theory.  If your theory or opinion manages to withstand the assault of attempted falsification, then it can be deemed stronger, but never totally true or a total fact; there could be a stunning revelation around the corner to kill it, which hasn't been thought of.

 

In other words, like Socrates, I prefer to know only one thing:  that I know nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

[Voice of reason 0]

1 hour ago, bendix said:

I have said nothing of the sort.  Specifically i have not suggested that because the young are not intellectually curious, then the old necessarily are.   Herein lies one of the problems of modern debate; particularly online debate.  Too many people scribe views to others that are not, in fact, held.  This is done by taking one aspect of a proposition and amplifying it to prove a wider theory, while ignoring anything that disproves it.

 

Karl Popper would have a field day here.  He argued that there are no scientific 'facts', only theories (ie opinions) which have yet to be verfied.  This is because when we have opinions, our natural instinct is to find evidence that supports it whereas in fact the true pursuit of knowledge is only achieved by doing the exact opposite - find ways to destroy your theory.  If your theory or opinion manages to withstand the assault of attempted falsification, then it can be deemed stronger, but never totally true or a total fact; there could be a stunning revelation around the corner to kill it, which hasn't been thought of.

 

In other words, like Socrates, I prefer to know only one thing:  that I know nothing.

 

Your comment:

The issue is not whether education standards are better now or not - that can't be measured in what is taught and what is learned.

 

What is lacking now is intellectual curiosity

 

Has led to that conclusion.

I do like your description of facts and opinions btw. It would be well remembered by lots of people, in lots of fields.

[Top Cats Hat 10]

18 hours ago, Voice of reason said:

Now, if you are saying the younger generation are less intellectually curious, and therefore older ones more intellectually curious, 

Show me where that was said?

 

I saw no mention of age in that comment.

[bendix 10]

33 minutes ago, Voice of reason said:

Your comment:

The issue is not whether education standards are better now or not - that can't be measured in what is taught and what is learned.

 

What is lacking now is intellectual curiosity

 

Has led to that conclusion.

I do like your description of facts and opinions btw. It would be well remembered by lots of people, in lots of fields.

By saying what is lacking now is intellectual curiosity, I wasn't suggesting it's an age thing.  At the end of the day, education is what it is - a force-feeding of pre-set 'facts' about a range of subjects such as history or geography or whatever.  I dont think that has changed much over the generations - it impacts young and old alike.

 

Intellectual curiosity comes from within.  I see little of it anywhere today, regardless of age.  It's not a young or old thing; it's a cultural and historical development.  Instead i see a population binging on factoids and memes and becoming increasingly dogmatic and unthinking and uncritical in their worldviews.

 

I can't recommend Popper enough.   The greatest thinker of the 20th century.

 

 

[Voice of reason 0]

46 minutes ago, bendix said:

By saying what is lacking now is intellectual curiosity, I wasn't suggesting it's an age thing.  At the end of the day, education is what it is - a force-feeding of pre-set 'facts' about a range of subjects such as history or geography or whatever.  I dont think that has changed much over the generations - it impacts young and old alike.

 

Intellectual curiosity comes from within.  I see little of it anywhere today, regardless of age.  It's not a young or old thing; it's a cultural and historical development.  Instead i see a population binging on factoids and memes and becoming increasingly dogmatic and unthinking and uncritical in their worldviews.

 

I can't recommend Popper enough.   The greatest thinker of the 20th century.

 

 

Do you mean you used to see intellectual curiosity but don't anymore?

If so, the biggest change factor is the internet. In many aspects of life, people expect things instantly, whether it's a pizza, an Amazon delivery or 'facts'.

[bendix 10]

Pretty much VoR.  The internet has served an intriguing dual purpose.  It has managed to dumb us down while giving us more 'knowledge'.   That isn't as contradictory as it sounds.  Knowledge does not provide wisdom, far from it.  Most of the greatest fools are those armed with knowledge, yet use it badly.

 

[Top Cats Hat 10]

The internet, like much technology, is neutral.

 

Yes, it is the source of a great deal of fake news but I would be careful of including fake news in a wider discussion of education or learning. Fake news is effectively propaganda and therefore closer to advertising than education. 

 

The internet is now the ‘go to’ source for most people’s information and as such, can’t be faulted. It does, however require a basic level of rigour and intellectual curiosity to navigate it effectively. The first step to doing that is being able to dig down through the glossy surface mess and look at the sources. My dad, although an old person, get’s most of his information these days via my sister’s iPad and says that what he can now find out in a couple of hours would have taken literally months in a library in the old days. Even then, that would exclude much information from outside the UK.

 

He despairs of people who have exactly the same access to this wealth of information as he does and yet know nothing! 😢

[tinfoilhat 11]

2 hours ago, bendix said:

Pretty much VoR.  The internet has served an intriguing dual purpose.  It has managed to dumb us down while giving us more 'knowledge'.   That isn't as contradictory as it sounds.  Knowledge does not provide wisdom, far from it.  Most of the greatest fools are those armed with knowledge, yet use it badly.

 

Indeed, knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I found that on the Internet.