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11 minutes ago, Voice of reason said:

completely different organisations. Unless you are going to tell us what wto legislation we implement periodically???

But the exact same type of organisation, which is the default setting if we "no deal" plenty of brextremists are and have argued for WTO terms so your soveriegn nation arguement is nonsense as we will still be under a foreign trade organisations rules.

Tell me how we will be better off and under none of "their" rules.

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1 minute ago, melthebell said:

But the exact same type of organisation, which is the default setting if we "no deal" plenty of brextremists are and have argued for WTO terms so your soveriegn nation arguement is nonsense as we will still be under a foreign trade organisations rules.

Tell me how we will be better off and under none of "their" rules.

EU rules and WTO rules are completely different things. WTO sets out general rules for countries to trade (i.e the whole world) unless they have their own trading agreements. The WTO don't have any product standards, or legislation that covers aspects of day-day life.

Whether we should opt for a WTO option (ie no Deal) or go for an EU deal is a completely different matter, with pros and cons of both. I personally prefer an EU deal.

But comparing the WTO and the EU is a misunderstanding completely.

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2 hours ago, Voice of reason said:

(...)

I'm talking about the situation that has been for the last few decades, not what will happen if we left and asked to be re-admitted. Any democracy should expect its own government to implement laws required by its own electorate. Having that overruled by another body (and some people might like that over-ruling) is unnecessary and not what democracy should be about.

I know we elect mep's blah de blah, to which the reply is we only have 10% in-line with our proportion of population etc etc etc.

Then you can't solve your problem (figure of speech) with the EU: it's designed as a sovereignty-pooling club (hence the Parliamentary system), not an arm's length trade agreement like e.g. NAFTA.

 

Feel free to try Trump, Putin or Xiping instead (with the UK just as much of a rule-taker -and arguably much more so: none of these are pushing egalitarian trading models like the EU between its member states). 

 

They're your only alternatives, now and in the foreseeable future, short of going it completely alone (I'm assuming the Swiss or Norwegian options are no-go, since they take EU rules exactly within the meaning of your issue, but unlike EU member states, they don't get to contribute to their making).

Edited by L00b

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2 hours ago, L00b said:

Then you can't solve your problem (figure of speech) with the EU: it's designed as a sovereignty-pooling club (hence the Parliamentary system), not an arm's length trade agreement like e.g. NAFTA.

 

Feel free to try Trump, Putin or Xiping instead (with the UK just as much of a rule-taker -and arguably much more so: none of these are pushing egalitarian trading models like the EU between its member states). 

 

They're your only alternatives, now and in the foreseeable future, short of going it completely alone (I'm assuming the Swiss or Norwegian options are no-go, since they take EU rules exactly within the meaning of your issue, but unlike EU member states, they don't get to contribute to their making).

How have the Japanese and Canadians reacted to the pooling of their sovereignty?

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10 hours ago, Voice of reason said:

How have the Japanese and Canadians reacted to the pooling of their sovereignty?

So, going it alone it is?

 

You've got neither Japanese productivity, innovation culture and strategic economic assets; nor Canadian resources and the convenience of an immediate land neighbour the size of the US (-long telling the Canadians how it is, in relation to trading). 

 

And you haven't even started yet on negotiating an FTA with the EU, which in each instance for Canada and Japan, took years and longer to negotiate (as do all FTAs).

 

You still ain't got much in the way of skilled negotiators either, last time I checked.

 

So, err...good luck :)

 

Some of us aren't pro-Remain out of pro-european ideology or other such misplaced subjective 'feelings', but out of cold hard economic objectivity. I'm only too aware that cold hard economic objectivity flew out the window back in February 2016 and, by the evidence of your politics and polls since, has yet to make a comeback (notwithstanding the volumes of official preparation notices already published by the UK, the EU and each of the EU27).

 

You can't eat sovereignty, no more than you can eat blame levelled at everyone and everything but yourselves for the consequences of your own (sovereign) decisions. So if you want to unpool the areas of sovereignty involved with EU membership for "reasons" (what are they, by the way? I get that it's your position, and that's absolutely fine, but you haven't explained why), then the least you can do is be honest with the British public and level with them about the short- to medium-term costs of doing that, what the plan is to mitigate those costs, and what's the timescale.

 

Else you're highly likely to see very serious social and public order problems developing in the UK come 2020.

Edited by L00b

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21 minutes ago, L00b said:

So, going it alone it is?

 

You've got neither Japanese productivity, innovation culture and strategic economic assets; nor Canadian resources and the convenience of an immediate land neighbour the size of the US (-long telling the Canadians how it is, in relation to trading). 

 ..........

You've convinced me what should be done.

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32 minutes ago, Voice of reason said:

You've convinced me what should be done.

You're in danger of convincing me that you're not worth the discussing effort.

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1 hour ago, L00b said:

You're in danger of convincing me that you're not worth the discussing effort.

Only just?......

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35 minutes ago, melthebell said:

Only just?......

Many of Voice's points are worth discussing (...in the EU context and in some cases, "again", because they've been considered time and again over the last 3+ years, but myths endure).

 

Some less so, such as the 'playing the man not the ball' ones, and the cryptic and/or nonsensical ones.

 

I take all posters as they come, lending the benefit of the doubt, until and/or unless that doubt gets removed :)

Edited by L00b

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2 hours ago, L00b said:

You're in danger of convincing me that you're not worth the discussing effort.

Well that's fine.

But your tirade against this country is hardly the inspiration to stay in an organisation you so vehemently support is it?

I'm reminded of a documentary I watched about an abusive husband who constantly belittled his wife. She said she was going to leave him, and his criticism intensified, telling her how pathetic and useless she was, and she would be nothing without him. She left him.

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59 minutes ago, Voice of reason said:

Well that's fine.

But your tirade against this country is hardly the inspiration to stay in an organisation you so vehemently support is it?

I'm reminded of a documentary I watched about an abusive husband who constantly belittled his wife. She said she was going to leave him, and his criticism intensified, telling her how pathetic and useless she was, and she would be nothing without him. She left him.

'Tirade'?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the UK rivals Japan in productivity, innovation capacity and strategic economical assets?

 

Seems to me that you have a problem with anything that jars your (perceivably-) nationalistic worldview.

 

About your documentary:

 

Nobody is holding the UK in the EU, but the UK itself.

 

Nobody else is liable for the consequences of Brexit, good and bad, than the UK.

 

Nobody in the EU27 (bar BritsinEU) is begging the UK to stay.

 

Nobody is telling the UK that it is pathetic, useless and would be nothing without the EU: plenty are saying all that about the UK's political class, however. Deservedly.

 

After all that, if you want to leave the EU in a huff because you don't like to hear some hard truths, well hey, fill your boots: I'm as much for full freedom of individuals' life choices, as for individuals' full responsibility for the ensuing consequences of their life choices :thumbsup:

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24 minutes ago, L00b said:

'Tirade'?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the UK rivals Japan in productivity, innovation capacity and strategic economical assets?

 

Seems to me that you have a problem with anything that jars your (perceivably-) nationalistic worldview.

 

About your documentary:

 

Nobody is holding the UK in the EU, but the UK itself.

 

Nobody else is liable for the consequences of Brexit, good and bad, than the UK.

 

Nobody in the EU27 (bar BritsinEU) is begging the UK to stay.

 

Nobody is telling the UK that it is pathetic, useless and would be nothing without the EU: plenty are saying all that about the UK's political class, however. Deservedly.

 

After all that, if you want to leave the EU in a huff because you don't like to hear some hard truths, well hey, fill your boots: I'm as much for full freedom of individuals' life choices, as for individuals' full responsibility for the ensuing consequences of their life choices :thumbsup:

In all of that, you jumped off the pooling of sovereignty in relation to free trade.

How is that squared in the Japanese and Canadian examples?

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