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On 12/05/2019 at 09:54, Tony said:

This week another(!) jewish friend of mine told me how he was liquidating his assets in case he needed to move the family out of the UK. There are few things that make me want to weep, but the rise of anti-semitism in the UK is one of them. Where it is done in support of the terrorist Hamas regime in Palestine it is even more woeful and misguided. It doesn't matter if you are kicking down or up, you're still kicking. Stop it.  

 

I try to steer clear of this topic as is brings out the political fanatics who don't even understand that they are antisemites. Most of us have learned the lessons of the past, but please, if you have people around you who haven't learned, take them under your wing and help them. This never ends well for anyone.

 

https://antisemitism.uk/crowds-at-corbyn-supported-anti-israel-march-attended-by-national-front-leader-cheer-as-speaker-says-jewish-organisations-are-in-the-gutter-and-part-of-the-problem/

 

Thanks.

I've got a lifetime of anti-racist, anti-fascist campaigning behind me, have campaigned with all sorts of anti-fascists including Searchlight, Anti Nazi League, UAF, TUC, etc.

 

I've got to say, the article you linked to is highly problematic. There is an awful lot of "reportedly" and so forth in there - presumably the observers had cameras which they could have used to back up all the claims. Lots of partial quotes without context. And clearly Corbyn wouldn't share a platform with the NF - the article tries to conflate Corbyn sending a message of support with the apparent presence of someone from the NF, as if these are somehow linked. Also, one person was wearing an antisemitic pin badge. So yes, they are a Jew hater. But how one person's discrete show of hatred is meant to reflect on everyone else there I don't know.

 

Throughout my years of campaigning it's always been important to correctly identify fascists and Nazis so as to be able to separate them from others and isolate them. Pretending that some people are fascists and Nazis when they are not confuses the issue and makes it harder to identify the genuine article and is therefore dangerous.

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1 hour ago, melthebell said:

Seems to me he's out to call EVERYBODY who criticises Israel's governments actions as antisemitic, to stifle debate

Exactly. 

 

There are Jews who are anti-Zionists.

Who oppose the apartheid state of Israel.

 

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9 hours ago, melthebell said:

Seems to me he's out to call EVERYBODY who criticises Israel's governments actions as antisemitic, to stifle debate

7 hours ago, Mr Fisk said:

Exactly. 

 

There are Jews who are anti-Zionists.

Who oppose the apartheid state of Israel.

 

Thoughts on this OP?

 

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22 hours ago, Lex Luthor said:

Ahhh.  Thanks for the heads up, Tony.  I criticised the Saudi Arabia government the other day, therefore I must be an Islamaphobe. 

 

Oh damn it!  Just about every other comment I make is in criticism of our politicians in the UK.  I must be racist towards all UK people everywhere too. 

I spend a lot of time heavily criticising the UK government... Am I prejudiced against everyone in the UK, or is it only the government of Israel that deserves a special, criticism free, position of power?

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5 hours ago, Cyclone said:

I spend a lot of time heavily criticising the UK government... Am I prejudiced against everyone in the UK, or is it only the government of Israel that deserves a special, criticism free, position of power?

I mean, one of the problems of the British left is that they are obsessed with Israel/Palestine, sometimes it seems to the exclusion of all else, and some of them go way too easy on Hamas, etc., but to accuse everyone on the left of being antisemitic because they support Palestinian rights, when we need as many people as possible to unite against a resurgent far-right, is really unhelpful.

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6 hours ago, Halibut said:

Thoughts on this OP?

 

Hmm, thanks for asking H. You and I have been here long enough to have half an idea of what the other probably thinks on these things - remember when we saw off the BNP all those years ago, with a combination of exposure, humiliation and truth telling? No dark corners for them to hide in, we gave them their platform  and shone a  spotlight on their face and a floodlight on their ideas, and watched them melt. I still raise a little smile at the Heidrich41 character all those years ago. 

 

Being a little older, maybe wiser, certainly more weary, I suppose I find it frustrating that the trend now is to try to create an ideal groupthink world where none can ever exist. And, if something might challenge this perfect purview the tendency seems to be to entrench then attack, rather than to discuss and learn and adapt. 

 

Specifically, it's irritating that this thread has me highlighting antisemitism so real that Jews  want to leave the UK, yet here I am being told to defend myself because I haven't declared my thoughts on the Israeli government - which I expect you will probably guess without me saying. Hell, is should go without saying that I'm not exactly keen on Israel's heavy approach, but I also expected that contributors might express some level of empathy when prompted to respond to how Israel's neighbours behave and think.

 

The horror of this thread saddens me, mainly because I don't think that there has been a single post expressing a similar horror that the 1930's are back, with Jews feeling that the UK isn't a safe place for them. I suppose that this time, Jews have Israel, F16's and tanks to protect them, even if certain factions intend that "from sea to sea palestine will be free".

 

If only eh?  :(

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1 hour ago, Tony said:

Hmm, thanks for asking H. You and I have been here long enough to have half an idea of what the other probably thinks on these things - remember when we saw off the BNP all those years ago, with a combination of exposure, humiliation and truth telling? No dark corners for them to hide in, we gave them their platform  and shone a  spotlight on their face and a floodlight on their ideas, and watched them melt. I still raise a little smile at the Heidrich41 character all those years ago. 

 

Being a little older, maybe wiser, certainly more weary, I suppose I find it frustrating that the trend now is to try to create an ideal groupthink world where none can ever exist. And, if something might challenge this perfect purview the tendency seems to be to entrench then attack, rather than to discuss and learn and adapt. 

 

Specifically, it's irritating that this thread has me highlighting antisemitism so real that Jews  want to leave the UK, yet here I am being told to defend myself because I haven't declared my thoughts on the Israeli government - which I expect you will probably guess without me saying. Hell, is should go without saying that I'm not exactly keen on Israel's heavy approach, but I also expected that contributors might express some level of empathy when prompted to respond to how Israel's neighbours behave and think.

 

The horror of this thread saddens me, mainly because I don't think that there has been a single post expressing a similar horror that the 1930's are back, with Jews feeling that the UK isn't a safe place for them. I suppose that this time, Jews have Israel, F16's and tanks to protect them, even if certain factions intend that "from sea to sea palestine will be free".

 

If only eh?  :(

It’s quite a leap to equate the conditions in 2019 UK with the 1930s.

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Just now, Eater Sundae said:

It’s quite a leap to equate the conditions in 2019 UK with the 1930s.

The Jews I mentioned in the OP know what the 1930's were like. Their family were there, and later in the ghetto, and then Auschwitz. A few somehow made it here.  Respectfully, I'd suggest that it's not your place or mine to nitpick any Jew who's worried about anti-Semitism, any more than it is appropriate to say that a rape victim was asking for it. 

 

The https://twitter.com/AuschwitzMuseum is worth following for a daily reminder of how it ends. Every day they post details of a victim of anti-Semitism. Here's yesterday's;

 

13 May 1943 | Sara Cohen was born in Groningen in The Netherlands. She was a Dutch Jewish girl, a daughter of Jozef and Carolien. In February 1944 she was murdered in a gas chamber of #Auschwitz. She lived 9 months.

 

D6d94FkWwAAzxdE.jpg

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5 hours ago, Bob Arctor said:

I mean, one of the problems of the British left is that they are obsessed with Israel/Palestine, sometimes it seems to the exclusion of all else, and some of them go way too easy on Hamas, etc., but to accuse everyone on the left of being antisemitic because they support Palestinian rights, when we need as many people as possible to unite against a resurgent far-right, is really unhelpful.

This is a fair comment.  I knew a few student activist types back in the 1980s, and there did seem to be something of an obsession with the issue.  Not that it isn't an issue, of course, but it's not the only issue on the geopolitical landscape.

 

The problem is that the OP sometimes gives the impression that he's just using the question of antisemitism to have yet another go at Labour, to see how often he can use the word 'antisemitism' in the same sentence as the word 'Corbyn', even though Corbyn has a record of "sustained parliamentary activity against anti-Semitism and in support of Jewish rights", as Tory journalist Peter Oborne puts it.  It's possible to be concerned for the rights of both Jews and Palestinians - in fact, in the long run, isn't that going to be the only non-violent way out of the situation?

 

It may be a false impression, but that is the impression that I get.

 

I have absolutely no doubt that there's been some vile abuse of Jewish people in the UK, but to extrapolate from that to the existence of some Nazi-like organization - a large scale popular movement with both the will and the means to pose an existential threat to the whole Jewish community - does seem 'quite a leap', as Eater Sundae puts it.

 

Of course, we need to be eternally vigilant against the possibility of that kind of movement ever arising, whether directed against Jews or anybody else.

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Posted (edited)

Post numbers #11, #12 and #13.  Halibut says he was called an anti semite for criticising the Israeli government and unless I misunderstood you said that was correct.

 

Nobody was rushing to denounce the Israeli government, it was simply being pointed out that criticising Israel is not anti semitism.

 

The topic hadn't even touched on Hamas, Palestine or any of those issues at the time, so it's a bit disingenuous to point out that they hadn't been criticised.

Edited by Cyclone

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10 hours ago, Tony said:

 

The horror of this thread saddens me, mainly because I don't think that there has been a single post expressing a similar horror that the 1930's are back, with Jews feeling that the UK isn't a safe place for them. I suppose that this time, Jews have Israel, F16's and tanks to protect them, even if certain factions intend that "from sea to sea palestine will be free".

 

 

I’m not seeing lots of horror in this thread, just some honest questioning.

 

Perhaps you could help us out Tony. Do you have any specific examples of anti-semitism experienced by your friends? What form did it take? What was the frequency? Those sort of details might lead us all to a greater understanding.

 

There is, as I’m sure you realise, a huge dichotomy between Anti-Semitism and opposition to the Israeli Government. The lines are easily blurred though, so the experience of your friends might go some way to unblurring them.

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14 hours ago, Tony said:

 

The horror of this thread saddens me, mainly because I don't think that there has been a single post expressing a similar horror that the 1930's are back, with Jews feeling that the UK isn't a safe place for them. I suppose that this time, Jews have Israel, F16's and tanks to protect them, even if certain factions intend that "from sea to sea palestine will be free".

 

If only eh?  :(

I don't need to follow an Auschwitz Museum tweet to remember the horrors of the Holocaust, or the sickening treatment meted out to the Jewish people.

 

I do think though that your comparison of 1930s Germany with 2019 UK is disrespectful to survivors and victims and to their loved ones. 

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