Antisemitism

[Guest]

1 hour ago, melthebell said:

Seems to me he's out to call EVERYBODY who criticises Israel's governments actions as antisemitic, to stifle debate

Exactly. 

 

There are Jews who are anti-Zionists.

Who oppose the apartheid state of Israel.

 

[Halibut 12]

9 hours ago, melthebell said:

Seems to me he's out to call EVERYBODY who criticises Israel's governments actions as antisemitic, to stifle debate

7 hours ago, Mr Fisk said:

Exactly. 

 

There are Jews who are anti-Zionists.

Who oppose the apartheid state of Israel.

 

Thoughts on this OP?

 

[Cyclone 10]

22 hours ago, Lex Luthor said:

Ahhh.  Thanks for the heads up, Tony.  I criticised the Saudi Arabia government the other day, therefore I must be an Islamaphobe. 

 

Oh damn it!  Just about every other comment I make is in criticism of our politicians in the UK.  I must be racist towards all UK people everywhere too. 

I spend a lot of time heavily criticising the UK government... Am I prejudiced against everyone in the UK, or is it only the government of Israel that deserves a special, criticism free, position of power?

[Bob Arctor 11]

5 hours ago, Cyclone said:

I spend a lot of time heavily criticising the UK government... Am I prejudiced against everyone in the UK, or is it only the government of Israel that deserves a special, criticism free, position of power?

I mean, one of the problems of the British left is that they are obsessed with Israel/Palestine, sometimes it seems to the exclusion of all else, and some of them go way too easy on Hamas, etc., but to accuse everyone on the left of being antisemitic because they support Palestinian rights, when we need as many people as possible to unite against a resurgent far-right, is really unhelpful.

[Tony 10]

6 hours ago, Halibut said:

Thoughts on this OP?

 

Hmm, thanks for asking H. You and I have been here long enough to have half an idea of what the other probably thinks on these things - remember when we saw off the BNP all those years ago, with a combination of exposure, humiliation and truth telling? No dark corners for them to hide in, we gave them their platform  and shone a  spotlight on their face and a floodlight on their ideas, and watched them melt. I still raise a little smile at the Heidrich41 character all those years ago. 

 

Being a little older, maybe wiser, certainly more weary, I suppose I find it frustrating that the trend now is to try to create an ideal groupthink world where none can ever exist. And, if something might challenge this perfect purview the tendency seems to be to entrench then attack, rather than to discuss and learn and adapt. 

 

Specifically, it's irritating that this thread has me highlighting antisemitism so real that Jews  want to leave the UK, yet here I am being told to defend myself because I haven't declared my thoughts on the Israeli government - which I expect you will probably guess without me saying. Hell, is should go without saying that I'm not exactly keen on Israel's heavy approach, but I also expected that contributors might express some level of empathy when prompted to respond to how Israel's neighbours behave and think.

 

The horror of this thread saddens me, mainly because I don't think that there has been a single post expressing a similar horror that the 1930's are back, with Jews feeling that the UK isn't a safe place for them. I suppose that this time, Jews have Israel, F16's and tanks to protect them, even if certain factions intend that "from sea to sea palestine will be free".

 

If only eh? 

[Eater Sundae 12]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

Hmm, thanks for asking H. You and I have been here long enough to have half an idea of what the other probably thinks on these things - remember when we saw off the BNP all those years ago, with a combination of exposure, humiliation and truth telling? No dark corners for them to hide in, we gave them their platform  and shone a  spotlight on their face and a floodlight on their ideas, and watched them melt. I still raise a little smile at the Heidrich41 character all those years ago. 

 

Being a little older, maybe wiser, certainly more weary, I suppose I find it frustrating that the trend now is to try to create an ideal groupthink world where none can ever exist. And, if something might challenge this perfect purview the tendency seems to be to entrench then attack, rather than to discuss and learn and adapt. 

 

Specifically, it's irritating that this thread has me highlighting antisemitism so real that Jews  want to leave the UK, yet here I am being told to defend myself because I haven't declared my thoughts on the Israeli government - which I expect you will probably guess without me saying. Hell, is should go without saying that I'm not exactly keen on Israel's heavy approach, but I also expected that contributors might express some level of empathy when prompted to respond to how Israel's neighbours behave and think.

 

The horror of this thread saddens me, mainly because I don't think that there has been a single post expressing a similar horror that the 1930's are back, with Jews feeling that the UK isn't a safe place for them. I suppose that this time, Jews have Israel, F16's and tanks to protect them, even if certain factions intend that "from sea to sea palestine will be free".

 

If only eh? 

It’s quite a leap to equate the conditions in 2019 UK with the 1930s.

[Tony 10]

Just now, Eater Sundae said:

It’s quite a leap to equate the conditions in 2019 UK with the 1930s.

The Jews I mentioned in the OP know what the 1930's were like. Their family were there, and later in the ghetto, and then Auschwitz. A few somehow made it here.  Respectfully, I'd suggest that it's not your place or mine to nitpick any Jew who's worried about anti-Semitism, any more than it is appropriate to say that a rape victim was asking for it. 

 

The https://twitter.com/AuschwitzMuseum is worth following for a daily reminder of how it ends. Every day they post details of a victim of anti-Semitism. Here's yesterday's;

 

13 May 1943 | Sara Cohen was born in Groningen in The Netherlands. She was a Dutch Jewish girl, a daughter of Jozef and Carolien. In February 1944 she was murdered in a gas chamber of #Auschwitz. She lived 9 months.

 

[Cyclone 10]

Post numbers #11, #12 and #13.  Halibut says he was called an anti semite for criticising the Israeli government and unless I misunderstood you said that was correct.

 

Nobody was rushing to denounce the Israeli government, it was simply being pointed out that criticising Israel is not anti semitism.

 

The topic hadn't even touched on Hamas, Palestine or any of those issues at the time, so it's a bit disingenuous to point out that they hadn't been criticised.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Cyclone

[Pettytom 1]

10 hours ago, Tony said:

 

The horror of this thread saddens me, mainly because I don't think that there has been a single post expressing a similar horror that the 1930's are back, with Jews feeling that the UK isn't a safe place for them. I suppose that this time, Jews have Israel, F16's and tanks to protect them, even if certain factions intend that "from sea to sea palestine will be free".

 

 

I’m not seeing lots of horror in this thread, just some honest questioning.

 

Perhaps you could help us out Tony. Do you have any specific examples of anti-semitism experienced by your friends? What form did it take? What was the frequency? Those sort of details might lead us all to a greater understanding.

 

There is, as I’m sure you realise, a huge dichotomy between Anti-Semitism and opposition to the Israeli Government. The lines are easily blurred though, so the experience of your friends might go some way to unblurring them.

[Lex Luthor 10]

14 hours ago, Tony said:

 

The horror of this thread saddens me, mainly because I don't think that there has been a single post expressing a similar horror that the 1930's are back, with Jews feeling that the UK isn't a safe place for them. I suppose that this time, Jews have Israel, F16's and tanks to protect them, even if certain factions intend that "from sea to sea palestine will be free".

 

If only eh? 

I don't need to follow an Auschwitz Museum tweet to remember the horrors of the Holocaust, or the sickening treatment meted out to the Jewish people.

 

I do think though that your comparison of 1930s Germany with 2019 UK is disrespectful to survivors and victims and to their loved ones. 

[melthebell 862]

4 hours ago, Lex Luthor said:

I don't need to follow an Auschwitz Museum tweet to remember the horrors of the Holocaust, or the sickening treatment meted out to the Jewish people.

 

I do think though that your comparison of 1930s Germany with 2019 UK is disrespectful to survivors and victims and to their loved ones. 

And if it was the other way round, comparing Israeli government actions with the Nazi's we'd instantly be tarred as nazis

[Tony 10]

@CaptainSwing I haven't mentioned Corbyn once.  Everyone else, I refer you, once again, to the link in the OP and the speech linked later. 

 

I remain, ABSOLUTELY stunned at many responses in this topic. That anyone dare demand I should defend myself against the smears and lies within some responses tells a sad story of the anti-Semitism opined in the OP. 

 

The point, and even the nuances intended, will have been understood by anyone with any awareness. I'm out of this cesspit.