Allegations of rape: Why are police asking victims for their phones?

[Cyclone 10]

1 hour ago, Waldo said:

Oh, was there a 'threat' then?  That's very different (intent etc) to simply saying here are the conditions for us to act on a thing.

 

Is a shop keeper threatening not to give you free stuff if you don't pay for it? Would that also constitute a threat?

Well, no, clearly the shopkeeper is not threatening.  The shopkeeper isn't ever supposed to give you free stuff.

The police are however supposed to investigate reports of crimes and the CPS are supposed to prosecute them if there's a good chance of conviction.

If the police reach a point where they have an active need for the victims phone then it's reasonable to ask for it and advise the victim that if they can't have it it will hamper their investigation.

That's very different to up front requiring that it be handed over and saying that they won't even TRY to investigate unless the victim complies.  That's clearly coercive, I don't know why you're even bothering to argue about it.

30 minutes ago, Lockdoctor said:

The police don't always know whether someone making an allegation of rape is  a  genuine victim of rape .  Phones are modern technology just like CCTV and DNA.  I believe there is a recent case where someone was falsely accused of rape and later to be proved innocent after the alleged victim's phone was examined.  It is more of a forward step than a backward step if examining a phone can prevent a miscarriage of justice

And so this is specifically about investigating the victim who is reporting the crime in an attempt to disprove that it happened.  And that's why it's coercive and also not required in order to investigate the alleged crime.

 

Perhaps if the allegation is against a specific person, and they in turn allege that this is a false report, well now the police have a separate incident to investigate right, and that incident requires that the phone be seized (with a warrant).  Or perhaps they could simply get the records from the phone provider, where there is no chance of them having been tampered with and where they can keep the seizure to only the relevant records.

[saywhatnow 33]

With regard to getting messages direct from the phone provider; if messages were sent via an encrypted app such as WhatsApp and not as an sms, would the police need the phone to be able to review the messages? I'm not exactly sure how these things work. 

[Cyclone 10]

You're correct, it's not possible for the network provider or indeed whatsapp to provide the content of encrypted messages.

[Guest makapaka]

5 hours ago, Cyclone said:

You're correct, it's not possible for the network provider or indeed whatsapp to provide the content of encrypted messages.

Unbelievable.

[Cyclone 10]

It's also not possible for the police to force someone to unlock a mobile phone and a decent one can't be opened in any other way.

6 hours ago, makapaka said:

Unbelievable.

Like, literally you don't believe it?

Or you're astounded that such technology to provide privacy can exist?

[Lockdoctor 10]

21 hours ago, Cyclone said:

 

And so this is specifically about investigating the victim who is reporting the crime in an attempt to disprove that it happened.  And that's why it's coercive and also not required in order to investigate the alleged crime.

 

Perhaps if the allegation is against a specific person, and they in turn allege that this is a false report, well now the police have a separate incident to investigate right, and that incident requires that the phone be seized (with a warrant).  Or perhaps they could simply get the records from the phone provider, where there is no chance of them having been tampered with and where they can keep the seizure to only the relevant records.

I'd expect the police to do some kind of investigation into any alleged victim of a serious crime.  I don't see a problem in an alleged victim of rape volunteering  to let the police examine their phone.   I guess that most rape cases are based on the alleged victims version of events and the alleged rapist version of events and it makes sense for the police to examine the phones of both people involved, if they believe it can help with their enquiries to establish who is telling the truth.

[Guest makapaka]

https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/handing-over-mobile-phone-data-rape-prosecutions

 

 

[Cyclone 10]

On 11/05/2019 at 09:51, Lockdoctor said:

I'd expect the police to do some kind of investigation into any alleged victim of a serious crime.  I don't see a problem in an alleged victim of rape volunteering  to let the police examine their phone.   I guess that most rape cases are based on the alleged victims version of events and the alleged rapist version of events and it makes sense for the police to examine the phones of both people involved, if they believe it can help with their enquiries to establish who is telling the truth.

We're talking about the victim of an alleged rape being required to hand over their phone.  Not being able to volunteer it if they wish.  And not only if the police thought it was relevant, the change was to apply to ALL rape cases, whether the phone was likely to be of any use or not.

20 hours ago, makapaka said:

https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/handing-over-mobile-phone-data-rape-prosecutions

 

 

What the CPS say and what actually happens appear to be quite different though.

 

https://rightsinfo.org/rape-victims-silenced-by-requirement-to-submit-mobile-phone-data/

 

Quote

 

“Given the amount of personal and often very intimate data stored on such devices, particularly by young women, it is not surprising that many victims who are reporting a deeply violating offence do not wish to be further exposed.  

Alison Saunders says she ‘doesn’t think’ innocent people are in jail because of disclosure failures 

“Most complainants fully understand why disclosure of communications with the defendant is fair and reasonable, but what is not clear is why their past history – including any past sexual history – should be up for grabs.  

“We seem to be going back to the bad old days when victims of rape are being treated as suspects.”

A separate investigation into the use of sexual abuse victims’ personal data by the Information Commissioner is ongoing.

Civil liberties charity Big Brother Watch said the policy amounted to a “digital strip search” and said victims should not have to “choose between their privacy and justice”.

 

From

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rape-victims-police-claim-mobile-phones-investigate-forms-legal-challenge-a8891036.html

Edited May 12, 2019 by Cyclone

[Guest makapaka]

4 hours ago, Cyclone said:

We're talking about the victim of an alleged rape being required to hand over their phone.  Not being able to volunteer it if they wish.  And not only if the police thought it was relevant, the change was to apply to ALL rape cases, whether the phone was likely to be of any use or not.

What the CPS say and what actually happens appear to be quite different though.

 

https://rightsinfo.org/rape-victims-silenced-by-requirement-to-submit-mobile-phone-data/

 

From

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rape-victims-police-claim-mobile-phones-investigate-forms-legal-challenge-a8891036.html

Pretty much all of the concerns highlighted in the media reports are addressed in the cps statement which makes specific reference to the inaccurate media reports you are quoting.

[Cyclone 10]

And as I said, the reality appears to be different to what the CPS claim is the process.

[Guest makapaka]

4 hours ago, Cyclone said:

And as I said, the reality appears to be different to what the CPS claim is the process.

Can you evidence that the reality is different to the cps statement?

[Cyclone 10]

Did you read the links?