Is gender inequality in sentencing ok?

[WiseOwl182 10]

5 hours ago, Bash Street said:

https://cjinvolvedwomen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Fact-Sheet.pdf

 

The link shows a graph eventually when you scroll down showing the reoffence rate, the 2 lines on the graph shows men and women reoffence rates, they are different and shouldn't be, they should be near enough the same.

There is a case that the disparity in sentencing, (which I think we all accept) isn't actually enough. To get the 2 lines to converge women should be getting lighter sentences or the men heavier.

 

All this is the basis of my opinion of why men and women should be sentenced differently to bring equality.

 

I've actually got there sooner than I wanted.

What’s the impact on the community?

Women who commit the same crime as men should, in most cases, receive lighter penalties. This should be so for three reasons:

Women re-offend less frequently than men – by a very considerable margin.

The impact of imprisonment on women is generally more damaging than on men. Women who are imprisoned for a long time can have their right to procreate effectively negated. Women also suffer more while they are imprisoned. They are more likely to have mental health issues and be victims of sexual abuse.

Women perform a greater portion of the caretaking roles in society than men. Removing women from society often has a devastating impact on their children, relatives and other dependants. This disruption should be minimised.

 

 

The above is an extract from the link below.

 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed/opinion-8-of-prisoners-are-women-that-s-about-8-too-many 

But how the average person of the same gender behaves is of no relevance to the specific individual being sentenced. You could apply your assumption that because, on average, men reoffend more, they should get longer sentences, but in doing so you would be assuming their behaviour tends towards the stereotype, which is also known as discrimination. 

 

As for women having a "right" to procreate", so too do men. Procreation is part of being a free human. However, whilst in prison, this is one of the freedoms forfeited as punishment for breaking the law. Men can also be the primary parental carer these days too - we live in 2019 and not 1950. The sentence impact should be judged on the individual and not the stereotype - again, to do so would be discrimination.

4 hours ago, Bash Street said:

Sorry, missed this one, stats show that black people receive harsher sentences than white people in the things I've looked at which of course needs addressing.

 

The reoffence rates for a black man v a white man are I think quite different but now we are looking at man v man, a like4like comparison. If you want to address this, which we should be doing then that should be brought about via societal changes.

As a closing statement, Up The Owls, bring on the Canaries.

 

Would you at least agree on that @WiseOwl182

I'd agree on the last point but not the rest. Applying your same brand of discriminatory sentencing, then if black men have higher reoffending rates on average then they should be sentenced more harshly than white men. The reason why that's wrong is because it is discrimination on grounds of race, just like harsher sentences for being male rather than female is discrimination on grounds of gender.

[Bash Street 10]

6 minutes ago, WiseOwl182 said:

Applying your same brand of discriminatory sentencing, then if black men have higher reoffending rates on average then they should be sentenced more harshly than white men. The reason why that's wrong is because it is discrimination on grounds of race, just like harsher sentences for being male rather than female is discrimination on grounds of gender.

Sorry, I have to disagree. A black man and white man are fundamentally the same (except for the obvious).

A women and a man are fundamentally different, both physiologically and psychologically,  I believe I've provided enough evidence to prove this.

The judiciary aren't stupid, they know it's not a level playing field, hence the difference in the sentencing of men and women. In respect of race, then it appears they are stupid, so I've just contradicted myself, never mind. 

You can't change a discrepancy when comparing exactly like for like by sentencing, you have to look at other methods which are societal and maybe some whole sections of society not getting a fair crack at the whip.

You have my argument and opinion now, so i'll leave it at that, especially at this time as the footy is on (mens) and I have to prepare for the events of later on which is the OWLS v the Canaries and I need to consume some Henry Westons prior.

Thanks for the debate anyway, I enjoyed it and it passed a few days or at least made them a little less boring.

[WiseOwl182 10]

1 hour ago, Bash Street said:

Sorry, I have to disagree. A black man and white man are fundamentally the same (except for the obvious).

A women and a man are fundamentally different, both physiologically and psychologically,  I believe I've provided enough evidence to prove this.

The judiciary aren't stupid, they know it's not a level playing field, hence the difference in the sentencing of men and women. In respect of race, then it appears they are stupid, so I've just contradicted myself, never mind. 

You can't change a discrepancy when comparing exactly like for like by sentencing, you have to look at other methods which are societal and maybe some whole sections of society not getting a fair crack at the whip.

You have my argument and opinion now, so i'll leave it at that, especially at this time as the footy is on (mens) and I have to prepare for the events of later on which is the OWLS v the Canaries and I need to consume some Henry Westons prior.

Thanks for the debate anyway, I enjoyed it and it passed a few days or at least made them a little less boring.

Fair enough, let's agree to disagree.

[Bash Street 10]

Just now, WiseOwl182 said:

Fair enough, let's agree to disagree.

🤙

[Waldo 96]

5 hours ago, Bash Street said:

🤙

Also happy to disagree,

 

For the record, my position is completely at odds with yours.

 

If I was handing out lifeboat places on the Titanic, I would certainly NOT give perfence to women over men (or vice-versa); such pro-women (at the expense of men) attitudes I find quite vile. Sadly, they are also too prevalent.

[Cyclone 10]

13 hours ago, Waldo said:

Also happy to disagree,

 

For the record, my position is completely at odds with yours.

 

If I was handing out lifeboat places on the Titanic, I would certainly NOT give perfence to women over men (or vice-versa); such pro-women (at the expense of men) attitudes I find quite vile. Sadly, they are also too prevalent.

Hugely sexist isn't it.

I expect that countries where women have fewer rights than men justify it using the same argument, fundamental physiological and psychological differences to men.  It's completely untrue of course, the physiological differences are minor or irrelevant, the psychological differences between individuals are large, to discriminate based on gender or sex is, well, discrimination and massively overbroad stereotyping.

[Waldo 96]

Absolutely, differences (psychological and physiological) between individuals are far greater than differences between groups of people. Well, that's my perception at least.

 

I sometimes wonder if (in the western world), men are considered more expendable (of less value) than women. Lighter prison sentences for women. Suicide rate higher for men. Disproportionately less resources (shelters etc) for male victims of domestic abuse. A man's social role, and expectation is for him to provide for women. Custody and access to his child, should he separate from the mother (often  courts auto assign custody of children to the mom). If a woman is struggling to cope, she can ask for help. if a man is struggling to cope, and he asks for help, he risks being viewed as not 'manly'.

 

Men are human too, and can be just as fragile as women, but it's not okay for men to be seen as such. It's just not right.

 

Of course, women (esp. in less developed nations) suffer from all kinds of serious discrimination and abuses. That's definitely not right either.

 

I just wished we lived in a world where ALL people were valued just because they're a human being, and not more or less so because of the type or colour of body they inhabit or sexual preference or whatever.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Waldo

[WiseOwl182 10]

Maybe male criminals could self identify as female in order to get lighter sentences. I'm not sure how Bash Street's discriminatory policy would cater for transgender people. Would a man changing to a woman be "fair" enough to get let off? 

[Cyclone 10]

I'm almost certain that if you ask him he'll say that he doesn't agree with, or believe in, or something similar, transgender people.

[Bash Street 10]

On 20/04/2019 at 13:58, Cyclone said:

Hugely sexist isn't it.

I expect that countries where women have fewer rights than men justify it using the same argument, fundamental physiological and psychological differences to men.  It's completely untrue of course, the physiological differences are minor or irrelevant, the psychological differences between individuals are large, to discriminate based on gender or sex is, well, discrimination and massively overbroad stereotyping.

Rubbish.

[Bash Street 10]

On 21/04/2019 at 07:55, WiseOwl182 said:

Maybe male criminals could self identify as female in order to get lighter sentences. I'm not sure how Bash Street's discriminatory policy would cater for transgender people. Would a man changing to a woman be "fair" enough to get let off? 

Let's stick to the topic in general instead of trying to drag minorities into it. I'm fine by the way of you and @Cyclone leaving it a few days and not quoting me as it just proves my argument.

On 21/04/2019 at 07:58, Cyclone said:

I'm almost certain that if you ask him he'll say that he doesn't agree with, or believe in, or something similar, transgender people.

As above, and also have a read of this,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48228167

 

Whatever you think, men and women are different, you can stamp your feet all you want, you're wrong, and not only are you wrong, the Judiciary knows you're wrong.

 

By the way, copy me in on any replies, unless of course you think I might be right and you can't accept it.😂

[Bash Street 10]

On 20/04/2019 at 13:58, Cyclone said:

Hugely sexist isn't it.

I expect that countries where women have fewer rights than men justify it using the same argument, fundamental physiological and psychological differences to men.  It's completely untrue of course, the physiological differences are minor or irrelevant, the psychological differences between individuals are large, to discriminate based on gender or sex is, well, discrimination and massively overbroad stereotyping.

How so, I'm arguing that in the countries you speak about the the women should be given more rights than the men. Men and Women are different, they always have been and they always will be, thank god.