LGBT issues and morality

[Albert the Cat 0]

18 hours ago, Top Cats Hat said:

If you read my post properly you would see that I said that the left takes a dim view of religion not the Labour Party which covers a wide spectrum of political belief from Corbyn on the left to Kate Hoey and Tony Blair on the right.

I know Tony Blair has done a few bad things but describing him as on the right is a bit extreme. How do you class the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg?! Centrists do exist in this world. 

[Cyclone 10]

10 hours ago, WiseOwl182 said:

One can't support both when they're in direct contradiction. So who do you support? Equal rights for homosexuals, or freedom to express and exercise religious beliefs?

The freedom to express and exercise religious beliefs has (for me at least) always been tempered with the caveat "where it doesn't impact or harm anyone else".  In fact that goes on the end of almost any freedom to do anything.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Cyclone

[Lockjaw 11]

22 hours ago, JamesR123 said:

That's complicated and depends on your belief on who Jesus was.  If Jesus = God then no.  If he is his own person then yes.

No it isn't and no it doesn't.  I have no "belief" in Jesus.  As far as I am concerned a bloke called jesus who some people wrote about may or may not have existed.

 

Regardless of that, the description of him and utterances attributed to him are undeniably left leaning.

 

I notice you have a habit of attributing complicatedness to a lot of situations, ideas and events which need not be so.  I wonder if this is a consequence of some severe cognitive dissonace caused by the fairly solid arguments against your embedded views that you are encountering on here.

 

Or maybe you're just Rushing.

 

😉.

 

Quote

 

That doesn't answer the question though.

 

Now.  I must applaud you on your magnificent mental acrobatics here.   Bravo!

 

So, how does referring to the leftyness of the guy whose values the Christians adopted not answer the question?

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Lockjaw

[Cyclone 10]

Are you trying to say that because the writings attributing things to Jesus are left leaning, and the labour party is left leaning, that the labour party is QED influenced by Christianity?  Because that would be a failure of logic.

22 hours ago, Lockjaw said:

I think Jesus comes across as pretty left-leaning.  Don't you?

Ghandi was also very left leaning, does that mean that you attribute the formation of the labour party to him as well?

22 hours ago, janie48 said:

If it wasn't for Christian values there wouldn't even be a Labour Party. 

 

And if it only had  left-wing Marxist dictators full of their own self-importance I certainly wouldn't be voting for it. 

 

 

The history of the labour party makes no mention of Christian values nor appears to have any particular links to organised religion.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(UK)

[Lockjaw 11]

3 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

Are you trying to say that because the writings attributing things to Jesus are left leaning, and the labour party is left leaning, that the labour party is QED influenced by Christianity? 

No.

 

Look back at James' original question.

 

He was asking which "Christian values" the Labour Party adopted.  I pointed out that the source of the Christian values was pretty left leaning,

 

Whether the party adopted those values because of Christian influence or by complete coincidence doesn't detract from the fact that they are the same values.

 

I choose to wear black a lot.  This means I have adopted Johhny Cash's dress style.  Doesn't mean he influenced me, though.  No logical issues there.

 

 

[Cyclone 10]

If they didn't adopt Christian values, but independently formed left leaning values, then James is correct.

22 hours ago, JamesR123 said:

Really?  Which particular Christian values and how did the religious aspect if those values lead to the creation of the Labour Party?

This is what he asked.  There are no particular Christian values nor religious aspects of those values that lead to the creation of the labour party.

22 hours ago, janie48 said:

If it wasn't for Christian values there wouldn't even be a Labour Party. 

 

And if it only had  left-wing Marxist dictators full of their own self-importance I certainly wouldn't be voting for it. 

 

 

And the reason he was making that point is that Janie specifically claimed that Christian values lead to the formation of the labour party.  They didn't.  The trade unions and a desire for less elitist representation amongst the working class lead to the formation of the labour party.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Cyclone

[JamesR123 0]

30 minutes ago, Lockjaw said:

No it isn't and no it doesn't.  I have no "belief" in Jesus.  As far as I am concerned a bloke called jesus who some people wrote about may or may not have existed.

 

Regardless of that, the description of him and utterances attributed to him are undeniably left leaning.

 

I notice you have a habit of attributing complicatedness to a lot of situations, ideas and events which need not be so.  I wonder if this is a consequence of some severe cognitive dissonace caused by the fairly solid arguments against your embedded views that you are encountering on here.

 

Or maybe you're just Rushing.

 

😉.

 

 

Now.  I must applaud you on your magnificent mental acrobatics here.   Bravo!

 

So, how does referring to the leftyness of the guy whose values the Christians adopted not answer the question?

 

It absolute does matter.  If Jesus is the same person as god (as the many of the people who believe in him claim, then he was very conservative.  He hates homosexuality enough to condemn male practitioners of homomsexual intercourse to an eternity of torture.  He is pro slavery, anti woman and many many things.

 

And regarding the question about the founding of the Labour Party, if you dont know how it doesn't answer the question, scroll back

[Lockjaw 11]

10 minutes ago, JamesR123 said:

It absolute does matter.  If Jesus is the same person as god (as the many of the people who believe in him claim, then he was very conservative.  He hates homosexuality enough to condemn male practitioners of homomsexual intercourse to an eternity of torture.  He is pro slavery, anti woman and many many things.

 

And regarding the question about the founding of the Labour Party, if you dont know how it doesn't answer the question, scroll back

You're doing that school kid thing again, james.

 

If Jesus was God then, obviously, by the time he did the Jesus thang, he had changed his mind.

 

 

[JamesR123 0]

16 minutes ago, Lockjaw said:

You're doing that school kid thing again, james.

 

If Jesus was God then, obviously, by the time he did the Jesus thang, he had changed his mind.

 

 

You should read the bible pal Or stop talking about things you have no idea about.

 

And your analogy isn't quite as bad as last time, but still pretty stupid.

[Top Cats Hat 10]

This discussion is straying a bit off topic a bit now but given that ‘the left’, socialism, whatever you choose to call it is fundamentally based on the notion of equality, how on earth can a philosophy which has a ‘deity’ who is certainly not equal or seen to be equal to the rest of us, be any more left leaning than any other autocracy.

[JamesR123 0]

Agreed.  Especially one that is pro slavery.

 

However, we are massively off track.

 

When debating someone at Sheffield University a few years ago, I stated for the first time that I do not believe homosexuality to be moral at all, but rather amoral. 

 

I had never really considered the moral aspect of homosexuality before, and had claimed, without thinking, that it was moral.

 

What do my fellow sheffielders think?

[Top Cats Hat 10]

It is neither moral nor amoral just as a Ford Escort car is neither moral nor amoral. 

 

It just is. It exists.