LGBT issues and morality

[Cyclone 10]

People can't define their own "normal".  Homosexuality is normal, it's happened throughout history, it happens in other species, it's behaviour that occurs naturally, people might want to pretend that it's not normal, but it's clearly a pretence.

[Top Cats Hat 10]

52 minutes ago, *_ash_* said:

Why do you think they dislike them?

They don’t.

[JamesR123 0]

1 minute ago, Cyclone said:

People can't define their own "normal".  Homosexuality is normal, it's happened throughout history, it happens in other species, it's behaviour that occurs naturally, people might want to pretend that it's not normal, but it's clearly a pretence.

People absolutely define their own normal.  Nature is not synonymous with normal.  Homosexuality is utterly normal to me.  I have been around homosexuals since I was very young.  I would say a good 25% of nights out in my life have been to gay pubs and clubs.

 

However, to some people it isnt normal.  (That's not to say it isnt natural).  People who have never knowingly seen a homosexual couple would not consider homosexuality normal

19 minutes ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Yes but we all understand their position. Is there anyone on here who doesn’t.

Understand on what level? The discussion was on morality.  Would you consider it to be a moral action for those who truly believe homosexuality is a sin and that male on male intercourse results in a punishment unimaginably cruel to stay quiet?

 

4 minutes ago, Mister M said:

I've heard the quotations from religious texts with regards to sexual orientation since being a teenager, and since then nothing that has changed my opinion that those who selectively use such texts do so to lend some kind of credibility to their bigotry. Religious texts such as the bible are much more than the sum of their parts. The wider message of the Bible and Quran is lost. That is a gross bastardisation: using sacred texts as a stick to beat someone with is vile.

As for your boast that you are able to understand the views of people culturally different to you. Congratulations, most other people can empathise with others; however I won't empathise with people who refuse to try and meet me half way. Not because they can't - it's that they won't. Your sexual orientation, like mine, is fixed - not that it should matter, after all you're able to respect people different to you. Adults can choose their religion, moreover, if they're of average intelligence they should easily be able to realise that they can choose interpret passages in their texts. If they choose to be a bigot, choose to discriminate, seek to subjugate others and believe themselves to be morally superior because of a biological fluke,  then those who claim to understand them are as stupid as they are patronising..

The message in the Quran and the Bible about homosexuality is very clear.  It does indeed have other messages, but the focus is on the message about homosexuality.

 

Now I don't believe in these books. But some do.  And whilst society should in no way be intimidated by these people, it isnt hard to understand that the behaviour of followers will be influenced by the book.

 

Some of them would say they are meeting you half way, but this meeting shouldn't include their children being exposed to something they are against.

[Mister M 1,609]

22 minutes ago, JamesR123 said:

People absolutely define their own normal.  Nature is not synonymous with normal.  Homosexuality is utterly normal to me.  I have been around homosexuals since I was very young.  I would say a good 25% of nights out in my life have been to gay pubs and clubs.

 

However, to some people it isnt normal.  (That's not to say it isnt natural).  People who have never knowingly seen a homosexual couple would not consider homosexuality normal

Understand on what level? The discussion was on morality.  Would you consider it to be a moral action for those who truly believe homosexuality is a sin and that male on male intercourse results in a punishment unimaginably cruel to stay quiet?

 

The message in the Quran and the Bible about homosexuality is very clear.  It does indeed have other messages, but the focus is on the message about homosexuality.

 

Now I don't believe in these books. But some do.  And whilst society should in no way be intimidated by these people, it isnt hard to understand that the behaviour of followers will be influenced by the book.

 

Some of them would say they are meeting you half way, but this meeting shouldn't include their children being exposed to something they are against.

Theologians and philosophers the world over have been engaged in serious  debate about God's message for centuries, I'm so glad that you've been able to clarify it for them. 

Who's meeting gay people halfway and how? The hardcore of the protestors aren't. And the whole point of education is being exposed to challenging ideas, otherwise what is it's point?

You do seem very quick to reassure us all that you don't believe these books, (and you've even been to a few Prides) but you're going a very long way to justify the intimidation of parents, MPs, other parents and children. Be proud of your bigotry.

I'm calling you out - I think you're a wind up merchant and a troll. 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Mister M

[JamesR123 0]

It's sad that you think that someone trying their best to understand the reasoning behind other people's actions  a troll.

 

I also find it offensive that you have called me a bigot.  I don't think you understand what the word means.  I am being the opposite of bigoted (look the word up).  You are the one being closer to bigoted (education for you, hating homosexuals is not form of bigotry).

 

These theologians and philosophers, which of them have stated that the God of Arbaham accepts male on male intercourse?  We are talking about that aspect of this gods message.

 

Now Islamic views of homosexuality, and it's treatment of homosexuals, has in my opinion, been far kinder than Christians throughout history.

 

As I have repeatedly said, I am not justifying it, I am explaining it.  As alluded to in another post, I am not above telling people to go back home if they cause a social nuisance and are from another country.  I would kindly say to any foreign born (be they white or non white, Muslim or non-muslim) "We defend the rights of homosexuals in this country, if you don't like it then leave".

 

We are discussing morality and whether protesting something you honestly believe to be dangerous is moral or.immoral.  Remember, many Abrahamists honestly believe in the sort of Lot.

 

 

 

[Cyclone 10]

I don't think that normal is something that people get to redefine for themselves.  Because when they say that what someone is doing is not normal, they don't mean to them, or in their household or in their sheltered lives.  They mean it in an absolute sense, they believe that what is being done is abnormal, and several other words starting with ab.  And they need educating as to why they are wrong, not having their bigotries and prejudices pandered to and certainly not allowing them to stop their children being educated because of them.

[nikki-red 307]

The personal comments, insults and bickering stop here.

If you cant discuss the topic without resorting to this then please dont post at all.

[Cyclone 10]

1 hour ago, JamesR123 said:

education for you, hating homosexuals is not form of bigotry

In a 1998 address, author, activist, and civil rights leader Coretta Scott King stated that "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."

[JamesR123 0]

3 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

In a 1998 address, author, activist, and civil rights leader Coretta Scott King stated that "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."

Ermmm what point do you think that serves?  I read that is her saying that homophobia is one thing, racism another and that anti-semitism and other forms of bigotry are another thing.  I guess that depends on whether you see Jews as a race or religion.

 

Regardless of what she meant, being homophobic isn't a form of bigotry. 

 

 

Weirdly, being against homophobic people can be bigoted.

[Cyclone 10]

She quite clearly says that it is like "other forms of bigotry".  Ie it is a form of bigotry itself.

 

Quote

Bigotry definition is - obstinate or intolerant devotion to one's own opinions and prejudices

 

Homophobia being a prejudice and an opinion.

[JamesR123 0]

14 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

I don't think that normal is something that people get to redefine for themselves.  Because when they say that what someone is doing is not normal, they don't mean to them, or in their household or in their sheltered lives.  They mean it in an absolute sense, they believe that what is being done is abnormal, and several other words starting with ab.  And they need educating as to why they are wrong, not having their bigotries and prejudices pandered to and certainly not allowing them to stop their children being educated because of them.

Of course normal is subjective and personal.  If you had a child who had to walk three miles to get to school every day, that wouldn't be normal.  However, in many countries that is normal.

 

Normality is heavily dependent on the environment you find yourself in.

 

You are right when you say that when people say something is not normal they often mean it in an absolute sense, but so do some people who use the term normal.

 

As I said many times before, I 100 percent agree that these protesters need educating. However, people are shaped by their knowledge, beliefs and experiences.  It is therefore understandable that these people are protesting and I do not believe them to be immoral on the whole.  I just believe them to be wrong.

[Cyclone 10]

So...  you've just demonstrated that you can be wrong about what is normal, not that you can redefine it.