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Major contribuition to road safety and reducing aggressive driving.

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3 hours ago, Obelix said:

Why? What make you think that those above 25 who are just starting driving are any safer?

 

What about all those people suddenly  out of work because they can't drive?

 

Far better to educate young drivers and make it socially unacceptable to drive like a loon. We manged it by and large with smoking..

It seems to be more to do with the appreciation of risk though, which is largely related to physical brain maturity and not something that can be taught.

 

It seems to be less related to driving ability and more related to the propensity to take badly judged risks (where the possible outcomes of the risk aren't really thought about).

Edited by Cyclone

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9 hours ago, geared said:

and drink driving.

 

Mobile phone use is next, proving hard to stamp out though.

Drivers and mobile phones, another example of just how inconsistent and hypocritical (plus selfish, obviously) many drivers are.

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20 hours ago, L00b said:

Maybe. As I posted earlier, insurance company-supplied telematics "black boxes" have been around for a while now, and are particularly used (as a discounting measure) for young drivers. So it'd be interesting to see what the insurance contracts based on their use look like.

 

But in reference to your hypothesis, not unless the insurance T&Cs specified it, nor unless speed was a major factor in the collision. Which, as we've seen from the stats linked and posted earlier, it rarely is.

 

@ Obelix ;)

2019-04-08-103727.jpg

Seems like a point of order is needed here:

-  black boxes/telematics have, indeed, been around for a while but this technology has spread widely into the corporate market with many/most organisations I go into making use of them.   So they aren’t just for learners

- “stats ... speed ... major factor ... rarely is” - your linkage here and the words you use is a commonly made and casual off-the cuff error.   Speed is a factor in EVERY single crash because without speed of some sort a crash doesn’t happen.  The debate and the heated divisions  are about the contributions that illegal speed, inappropriate speed or injudicious actions make to the stats. 

- as for “illegal speed”, are the Police likely to mark that on a bunch or on hard evidence (photographic/forensic)?  How serious/fatal does a crash need to be before the Police get stuck in to find “hard evidence”?   What does that do by way its understatement in the stats?  Check out the “rareness” of illegal speed being quoted in crashes that are classed from the start off in the Police’s evaluation as “potentially life-threatening” or “fatal”.

But don’t rely on stats that give a very partial overview and use erroneous terms like “causes” rather than “contributory factors”.

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2 hours ago, DT Ralge said:

Seems like a point of order is needed here:

-  black boxes/telematics have, indeed, been around for a while but this technology has spread widely into the corporate market with many/most organisations I go into making use of them.   So they aren’t just for learners

- “stats ... speed ... major factor ... rarely is” - your linkage here and the words you use is a commonly made and casual off-the cuff error.   Speed is a factor in EVERY single crash because without speed of some sort a crash doesn’t happen.  The debate and the heated divisions  are about the contributions that illegal speed, inappropriate speed or injudicious actions make to the stats. 

- as for “illegal speed”, are the Police likely to mark that on a bunch or on hard evidence (photographic/forensic)?  How serious/fatal does a crash need to be before the Police get stuck in to find “hard evidence”?   What does that do by way its understatement in the stats?  Check out the “rareness” of illegal speed being quoted in crashes that are classed from the start off in the Police’s evaluation as “potentially life-threatening” or “fatal”.

But don’t rely on stats that give a very partial overview and use erroneous terms like “causes” rather than “contributory factors”.

I accept your first point but, in turn, seems like a further couple points of order are needed here:

 

I haven't disclaimed the relevance of speeding in every single crash like you seem to suggest I have (or you seem to have understood from my post), for the elementary reason that without speed there is no motion, hence there cannot be "a crash" (of the sort at debate herein, and which is well understood). Speed, excessive or otherwise, is a constant in crashes. It's a truism: you need at least 1 body in any sort of motion, to cause a collision. That is why it can be trivialised, unless it actually is a *major* factor amongst the circumstances (you did spot my use of "major" in my earlier post, right?) 

 

I haven't referred to "illegal speed" either, whether police-assessed or otherwise, since 1mph over the limit is technically illegal yet isn't going to influence the outcome of a crash to any great extent, contrarily to -say- 20 or 30mph over the limit. It's a meaningless expression, in context: the appropriateness of the speed to the driving circumstances matters significantly more.

 

And on that score, there can be plenty of circumstances wherein the posted speed limit would be dangerous to drive at. Such as fog, icy conditions, blind bends or hill tops, higher congestion  levels <etc> (and which, very topically, this EU-mandated ASL at debate is not going to do anything about, until it eventually gets augmented by a battery of sensors, LIDAR, 5G real-time traffic ahead data and whatnot, in years to come).

 

Just don't mistake short-style posting for casual dismissal of points and arguments :)

Edited by L00b

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8 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

Drivers and mobile phones, another example of just how inconsistent and hypocritical (plus selfish, obviously) many drivers are.

and ignorant.

 

How many times have you seen someone on their phone, yet behind the wheel of a flash German motor?

The car obviously has bluetooth handsfree, but they can't be bothered to use it?

 

Should be double fine for cases like that, no excuse.

Edited by geared

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8 hours ago, geared said:

and ignorant.

 

How many times have you seen someone on their phone, yet behind the wheel of a flash German motor?

The car obviously has bluetooth handsfree, but they can't be bothered to use it?

 

Should be double fine for cases like that, no excuse.

Drivers of a certain German car are also more likely to tailgate, speed, and not give way, in my experience.

 

I've also met many people and predicted correctly that they would own this German model. They certainly attract a certain type of person.

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15 hours ago, L00b said:

I accept your first point but, in turn, seems like a further couple points of order are needed here:

 

I haven't disclaimed the relevance of speeding in every single crash like you seem to suggest I have (or you seem to have understood from my post), for the elementary reason that without speed there is no motion, hence there cannot be "a crash" (of the sort at debate herein, and which is well understood). Speed, excessive or otherwise, is a constant in crashes. It's a truism: you need at least 1 body in any sort of motion, to cause a collision. That is why it can be trivialised, unless it actually is a *major* factor amongst the circumstances (you did spot my use of "major" in my earlier post, right?) 

 

I haven't referred to "illegal speed" either, whether police-assessed or otherwise, since 1mph over the limit is technically illegal yet isn't going to influence the outcome of a crash to any great extent, contrarily to -say- 20 or 30mph over the limit. It's a meaningless expression, in context: the appropriateness of the speed to the driving circumstances matters significantly more.

 

And on that score, there can be plenty of circumstances wherein the posted speed limit would be dangerous to drive at. Such as fog, icy conditions, blind bends or hill tops, higher congestion  levels <etc> (and which, very topically, this EU-mandated ASL at debate is not going to do anything about, until it eventually gets augmented by a battery of sensors, LIDAR, 5G real-time traffic ahead data and whatnot, in years to come).

 

Just don't mistake short-style posting for casual dismissal of points and arguments :)

We aren’t in disagreement, in reality, such is the difficulty of written communication.

However, if you had been on a speed awareness course, the major point that ought to have screamed out from the discussion is that EVERY single mph over any given speed makes a disproportionately  huge difference to the force of impact in any resultant coming-together. 

So 1 mph does make a difference as does 2 etc. 

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5 hours ago, WiseOwl182 said:

Drivers of a certain German car are also more likely to tailgate, speed, and not give way, in my experience.

 

I've also met many people and predicted correctly that they would own this German model. They certainly attract a certain type of person.

The most aggressive drivers are Audi drivers, not all of them by any means, but a higher percentage than drivers of other cars. Anyone who does any reasonable amount of driving must know this. As it happens, partly because certain people * argued with me I did some research on it and I know for a fact it`s true.

 

The list  from least aggressive to most aggressive is (excluding young drivers of "rorty" hatchbacks, they`d obviously be the worst) :

 

All drivers (the average)

Male drivers.

Drivers of German cars.

Audi drivers

Audi R8 drivers

 

* The petrolhead brigade. I don`t know why they felt they should defend Audi drivers (and to a lesser extent German car drivers), other than they :

A - Will argue with anyone who supports speed cameras and stuff like that

B - Most of them drive German cars themselves.

 

 

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8 hours ago, DT Ralge said:

We aren’t in disagreement, in reality, such is the difficulty of written communication.

However, if you had been on a speed awareness course, the major point that ought to have screamed out from the discussion is that EVERY single mph over any given speed makes a disproportionately  huge difference to the force of impact in any resultant coming-together. 

So 1 mph does make a difference as does 2 etc. 

I didn't think we were in disagreement :)

 

...but you're not going to convince me that there is a "disproportionately  huge difference" to the force of an impact at 31 mph relative to 30mph, because physics: KE=1/2m(v^2).

 

For instance, your KE difference between 30 & 31 mph is +6.7%, and +2.2% between 90 & 91 mph (eg).

 

It's a different kettle of fish  once you get into 4-5mph over the reference speed (+36% at 35 mph, +11% at 95 mph), for sure, since the relationship is non-linear.

 

But KE is still always proportional to the speed all the same, since speed is a factor of the equation.

 

I get that speed awareness courses need to shock-therapy their attendees. I've never attended one, nor been in circumstances wherein the choice could have been given. I served a 6 months driving ban in my misspent youth, however: back to walking and public transport in my late teens, was quite the (re)formative experience.

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7 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

The most aggressive drivers are Audi drivers, not all of them by any means, but a higher percentage than drivers of other cars. Anyone who does any reasonable amount of driving must know this. As it happens, partly because certain people * argued with me I did some research on it and I know for a fact it`s true.

 

The list  from least aggressive to most aggressive is (excluding young drivers of "rorty" hatchbacks, they`d obviously be the worst) :

 

All drivers (the average)

Male drivers.

Drivers of German cars.

Audi drivers

Audi R8 drivers

 

* The petrolhead brigade. I don`t know why they felt they should defend Audi drivers (and to a lesser extent German car drivers), other than they :

A - Will argue with anyone who supports speed cameras and stuff like that

B - Most of them drive German cars themselves.

 

 

This is another one of your bizarre prejudices that you dream up whilst counting counts instead of concentrating on driving well.

 

For example, on your list I fall only into the Male drivers category, but I'm changing my car and I considered buying an R8.  I didn't though, due to the age/versus price decision at the end of the day.

Clearly my driving characteristics do not depend on what car I own and such broad categories as "German cars" is just lazy stereotypical thinking with no evidence to support it.

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1 hour ago, Cyclone said:

(...)

Clearly my driving characteristics do not depend on what car I own and such broad categories as "German cars" is just lazy stereotypical thinking with no evidence to support it.

It's all the more baseless, as it doesn't translate well to other countries: most people here in Lux drive German cars, other countries of manufacture are the exception rather than the norm; over the border in France, most people drive French cars, other countries of manufacture are again the exception rather than the norm.

 

Stereotyping based on car make driven is pretty idiotic.

 

If I were to base an opinion about aggressive drivers on empirical, personal observation, like Justin allegedly did, then over the course of the past 14 months or so, the most aggressive drivers over here are young French and Lux women in either Renaults (clios & megane coupes) or Fiats (500); the most courteous ones are late middle-aged gents in German luxobarges (7-series, A6/A8, E/S classes); and speeders (as in, very noticeably over the limit) are invariably driving high performance sports cars (Mustangs by the lorry-load, lambos & similar exotics, BMWs M-something, Hyundais stingers, Alfas Q4s) but never tailgating.

 

I.e. the complete opposite of Justin's findings.

 

 

Edited by L00b

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I was going to suggest that perhaps noticeable speeding behaviour is down to the ability of the car rather than the characteristic of the driver, but frankly it's as easy to speed in a BMW 220D as it is in something exotic.  Both will easily exceed 70.  Perhaps it's more memorable when a Lambo howls past though rather than a chugging diesel boring saloon.

Observers might say that my driving is "more aggressive" in my car than my wifes.  In reality it's just that the different car characteristics open up different opportunities.  There are places I can safely overtake in my car that simply aren't safe in hers as it would take too long to execute.

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