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Consequences of Brexit [part 7] Read first post before posting

mort

 Let me make this perfectly clear - any personal attacks will get you a suspension. The moderating team is not going to continually issue warnings. If you cannot remain civil and post within forum rules then do not bother to contribute. 

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2 hours ago, apelike said:

Not necessarily, like most things brexit it is a prediction by some that may happen but is not guaranteed.

 

A hard border does not need much implementation or much technology to operate. 

This is just willful ignorance now.   Nobody believes that a hard border could be created with recreating the troubles.

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3 hours ago, Top Cats Hat said:

A hard border will need large numbers of police and possibly even British and Irish troops to protect it. 

No it wont. You do realise the the GFA says very little about a hard border but concentrates on the dismantling of what there was in place at the time, and that was the heavily fortified army barracks, police stations and watchtowers along the border. Those are no longer in place as they were dismantled and there is absolutely no reason why they will be needed to be brought back. It was the dismantling of them that brought about peace. Basically the people who are anti-brexit are the ones who are putting forward the idea that there will be a resurgence of the troubles and are seeding that idea.

Edited by apelike

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So there definitely won't be any increase in trouble of any kind by putting a boarder in place again??

 

That is what you are saying?

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15 minutes ago, geared said:

So there definitely won't be any increase in trouble of any kind by putting a boarder in place again??

 

That is what you are saying?

No. I'm saying there is no reason to believe that there will be any troubles just because of a hard border being in place as the GFA never mentioned anything or was reliant on any border and was about demilitarisation and closer cooperation. In fact having a hard border in place may just spur NI into cooperation, create a workable government and make becoming independent quicker, so NI may actually benefit from it.

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1 hour ago, apelike said:

No it wont. You do realise the the GFA says very little about a hard border but concentrates on the dismantling of what there was in place at the time, and that was the heavily fortified army barracks, police stations and watchtowers along the border. Those are no longer in place as they were dismantled and there is absolutely no reason why they will be needed to be brought back. It was the dismantling of them that brought about peace. Basically the people who are anti-brexit are the ones who are putting forward the idea that there will be a resurgence of the troubles and are seeding that idea.

you really dont have a clue theres enough youtube and news evidence out there detailing that theres still a minority just waiting for an excuse to go back to violence, its there bubbling under the surface, the animosity is still there between two very different groups of people, the community is STILL divided upon sectarian lines.

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1 hour ago, apelike said:

No it wont. You do realise the the GFA says very little about a hard border but concentrates on the dismantling of what there was in place at the time, and that was the heavily fortified army barracks, police stations and watchtowers along the border. Those are no longer in place as they were dismantled and there is absolutely no reason why they will be needed to be brought back. It was the dismantling of them that brought about peace. Basically the people who are anti-brexit are the ones who are putting forward the idea that there will be a resurgence of the troubles and are seeding that idea.

There will be a reason if the paramilitaries become active again, and there is every reason to fear they will. Signs aren’t great are they.

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Just now, I1L2T3 said:

There will be a reason if the paramilitaries become active again, and there is every reason to fear they will. Signs aren’t great are they.

thing is...they ARE active

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4 minutes ago, melthebell said:

you really dont have a clue theres enough youtube and news evidence out there detailing that theres still a minority just waiting for an excuse to go back to violence, its there bubbling under the surface, the animosity is still there between two very different groups of people, the community is STILL divided upon sectarian lines.

Neither community needs much of an excuse. If it all goes up it will be quick, way too quick for the government to respond adequately.

Just now, melthebell said:

thing is...they ARE active

Fair point, active to the point of running active sustained military campaigns is what I meant

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there was a journalist murdered the other week, during a riot, funny thing is that riot started because the police were doing their job.....a house search

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1 hour ago, apelike said:

Basically the people who are anti-brexit are the ones who are putting forward the idea that there will be a resurgence of the troubles and are seeding that idea.

Like many on here, you seem to have very little understanding of Irish history and politics. 

 

This is nothing to do with watchtowers and military installations, it is about freedom of movement in a country that the majority of people consider to be one entitity. The only way I can think of explaining it is to ask how you would feel if you lived in Eckington and worked in Staveley but then one day you were told that you could no longer cross the South Yorkshire-Derbyshire border without being subject to customs and identity checks. 

 

I suspect that you wouldn't be very happy.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Like many on here, you seem to have very little understanding of Irish history and politics. 

On the contrary, I have an understanding on par with most on here.

 

Quote

This is nothing to do with watchtowers and military installations, it is about freedom of movement in a country that the majority of people consider to be one entitity.

So it was nothing to do with demilitarisation under the GFA that demolished the watchtowers, demolished the military bases and demolished the fortified police bases that led to some relative peaceful times but was about having no border which never played a part in drawing up the GFA anyway. Probably also nothing to do with the billions of euros that the EU have been pumping into NI under the Peace initiative program to help maintain peace, which will stop if there is a no-deal brexit.

Edited by apelike

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4 minutes ago, apelike said:

So it was nothing to do with demilitarisation under the GFA that demolished the watchtowers, demolished the military bases and demolished the fortified police bases that led to some relative peaceful times but was about having no border which never played a part in drawing up the GFA anyway. 

No, nothing at all.

 

After the various ceasefires, political agreements and decommissioning of weapons there ceased to be any need for such a large military presence in most areas in the north and hence the infrastructure was gradually removed.

 

The border comes into the Belfast Agreement at the centre of the new arrangements ie.  parity of esteem of all Irish citizens. In short, those who wished to see a reunited Ireland should no longer be treated as criminals, second class citizens or subversives and should have their ambitions seen as legitimate. Part of this is that they should be able to travel freely to ALL PARTS OF THEIR COUNTRY even though for now, the North was still under the jurisdiction of the UK government.

 

Irish people have long memories and it would not take those who have always opposed the peace process, long to pursuade a significant number of people in their populations that nothing has really changed and 'here we are again being treated as second class citizens being told where we can and can't go.' These things are very, very real and trying to pretend that they are just made up to thwart Brexit makes you look foolish.

 

At the end of the day peace in Ireland is way more important than Brexit and if the two things aren't compatible then it is peace which has to prevail (and it will prevail). 

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