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Overthrowing the government of Venezuela

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On 31/01/2019 at 23:09, tinfoilhat said:

So, are the bbc liars here, or just the people they’re interviewing or what? Perhaps they aren’t even Venezuelan? I don’t speako de lingo so they could be saying anything I suppose.

 

Am I to dismiss out of hand?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-46864864

I don't think it's right to say the media are necessarily liars,  but there is such a thing as lying by ommision, in other words, telling only one side of a story. This seems to be the media's modus operandi in many cases. You have to do your own research to get the whole picture, and most people don't bother, they simply accept what they are told / shown. 

 

Another ploy, (when the facts don't suit them or are too big to ignore,) is to do the exact opposite.

Say 10,000 people oppose an argument which is seen as popular to the media, and only 1 person supports it, they ignore the figures and give equal airtime to the 1 who supports it, making it seem to be an argument of  equivelent strength / number.   

 

There are always two sides to an argument, but many ways of manipulating the argument / bias without actually resorting to 'lying.' 

Edited by Anna B

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Venezuela

4 hours ago, Phanerothyme said:

If you're going to paraphrase Russia Today so closely, you should probably put it within quotes.

For clarity.

I got  bits from all over the place,  over half a dozen, but have been familiar with what has been going on, regarding US death Squads, overthrowing elected governments for a few decades.  What is not mentioned that much is the fact  Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world, which the USA was used to getting for next to nothing, and wants its position back.  When I say the US I mean a small influential group of politicians and corporations who have  over the last 100 years or so has run South America like a prison factory, murdering its way to hold onto it power.   Now the US is overt about its intentions, and threats,  which is what TRUMP has done, expose what has been covert, so all can see  the hypocrisy of blaming Russia for meddling  despite no evidence when its a cover for exactly what the US does all the time.   Since WW2 they have made the atrocities by Hitler seems quite modest just check out how US pilots in Korea complained there was nothing left to bomb.   I was alerted to the atrocities in Guatemala  in the 1990’s and how and what the US death squads did, which has not changed at all, as ISIS do exactly the same, why change something that works a treat is sheer terror on a population,  if it ain’t broke

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9 hours ago, tinfoilhat said:

You’ve already answered it, we sell them lots and lots of weapons. The good stuff too. You could argue that Saudi is one of the few stable states in an unstable region but, I’d guess, from the UKs position itsdown to the amount of money they give us.

 

Why don’t we lean in China, why did darfour get ignored by everyone, Sri Lanka got a totally free pass on the Tamils. Should we get involved in all, none, some? 

And now you’re talking to yourself, that’s a sign you know.

Because a country like China would give us a good hiding, with our American friends we only pick on the week and defenceless,

USA used to stand for something good, but that was a long long time ago, they are now nothing but a power hungry bully..

I cant believe that we are debating this subject, i cant believe how people are trying to defend Americas involvement in the overthrowing of yet another country, 

people follow like sheep

Edited by banjodeano

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6 hours ago, justinelle said:

Venezuela

I got  bits from all over the place,  over half a dozen, but have been familiar with what has been going on, regarding US death Squads, overthrowing elected governments for a few decades.  What is not mentioned that much is the fact  Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world, which the USA was used to getting for next to nothing, and wants its position back.  When I say the US I mean a small influential group of politicians and corporations who have  over the last 100 years or so has run South America like a prison factory, murdering its way to hold onto it power.   Now the US is overt about its intentions, and threats,  which is what TRUMP has done, expose what has been covert, so all can see  the hypocrisy of blaming Russia for meddling  despite no evidence when its a cover for exactly what the US does all the time.   Since WW2 they have made the atrocities by Hitler seems quite modest just check out how US pilots in Korea complained there was nothing left to bomb.   I was alerted to the atrocities in Guatemala  in the 1990’s and how and what the US death squads did, which has not changed at all, as ISIS do exactly the same, why change something that works a treat is sheer terror on a population,  if it ain’t broke

Yeah, but eye witness statements can't always be believed.

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9 hours ago, tinfoilhat said:

Yeah, but eye witness statements can't always be believed.

 

9 hours ago, tinfoilhat said:

Yeah, but eye witness statements can't always be believed. 

Well that puts the mainstream media down the drain,  plus agencies like Amnesty, Oxfam and the rest...allowing opinion to be the only truth,  nothing but the truth in the increasingly Orwellian climate striking the western world One does no ask just one person but many, at different times different places.  On your idea of fact then the people who survived the Holocaust cannot be believed too I suppose!!!  Its their statements that provided the evidence of who was responsible, so the triels were  what exactly?

 

Are you just trying to tell me that anything that questions set opinions has to be dismissed out of hand, What next everything is conspiracy theory another way of trashing a personal opinion?

 

But let us discuss hypocracy for a change, you worte: Link is further back. Dismiss if you like, I don’t care. There are testimonies from guards, prisoners, academic experts of their field.  Relying on testomies according to (the Law of The Nameless one)  cannot always be belived unless a particular author gives the OK ??????? 

Edited by justinelle
bit missed out

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The US has an appalling history of intervention and supporting and arming strong-arm right wing dictators, and fomenting rebellion against strong-arm left wing dictators, in South America and the Caribbean.

Right up to and including bombing a civilian jetliner out of the sky.

I have no doubt they want a right wing, neo-liberal free marketeer as Venezuelan President, and like everywhere else they will send in "advisors", "consultants", and "security specialsist" - in fact everything short of actual uniformed divisions, in to get it done.

But, that does not make Maduro some kind of benevolent victim saint. The Bolivarian Venezuelan regime was only an improvement on the previous one for a short time, less than a decade. Since then, life for ordinary Venezuelans has gone steeply downhill, whilst the QoL for the presidency, military and the loyalists has blossomed.

 

At the very least, elections should be held. Which is what the EU is calling for.

 

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2 hours ago, Phanerothyme said:

The US has an appalling history of intervention and supporting and arming strong-arm right wing dictators, and fomenting rebellion against strong-arm left wing dictators, in South America and the Caribbean.

Right up to and including bombing a civilian jetliner out of the sky.

I have no doubt they want a right wing, neo-liberal free marketeer as Venezuelan President, and like everywhere else they will send in "advisors", "consultants", and "security specialsist" - in fact everything short of actual uniformed divisions, in to get it done.

But, that does not make Maduro some kind of benevolent victim saint. The Bolivarian Venezuelan regime was only an improvement on the previous one for a short time, less than a decade. Since then, life for ordinary Venezuelans has gone steeply downhill, whilst the QoL for the presidency, military and the loyalists has blossomed.

 

At the very least, elections should be held. Which is what the EU is calling for.

May I congratulate you on dismissing the whole historical process that has led to the situation today,  and it is good to her how well you have swallowed the simplistic media message.   But it proves you are an attentive person, and believe what you choose to cherry  pick as it make a bold statement and proves you are a good and conscientious citizen.   I would not deprive you for one second you daily serial of the right propaganda  message  you love to consume.   Orwell would be proud of you.

Have you ever heard of the term SANCTIONS, and do you know what they are used for, and do you know how they have been applied and for how long in Venezuela?  Obviously not!!! 

Do you remember Albright and her response to the death of a mere half a million children in  Iraq caused by sanctions?  She said it was worth it.   Sanctions today are he just the modern equivalent of a siege in the middle ages.  Sieges were designed to bring  a fortification to submission, then the conquer  took control and ripped off all the wealth. 

Today’s siege we call sanction are designed  to cripple a nation, subjugate it to the will of the power that want total control.  If it worked then there is no need to bomb all the infrastructure of the country and its people or create death squads to spread terror as the US has done so effectively in Syria, and Libya

Sanctions are designed to cripple a country economically, make people die due to lack of food medication  like in YEMEN today.   The concept is to create social unrest and the people should rise up against the government and put in a neo con puppet, like in Afghanistan, and Iraq, and the rest of the subjugated nations which includes the UK which started with Thatcher.  

Bolton stated they are after the oil the biggest reserve in the world, and if it takes starving a nation depriving it of goods  and trade, then who cares about the people when its  not about them at all, and never was and will never be, except to sell through the compliant media to people who want a simple explanation, and then they know who is the good guy and who is the bad.   It then allows people with little knowledge to have an opinion about something a few months ago they did not have a clue about, making them seem clever.   But they just regurgitate the media  propaganda as that is all they know.   Bless!!!

 

 

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14 hours ago, justinelle said:

 

Well that puts the mainstream media down the drain,  plus agencies like Amnesty, Oxfam and the rest...allowing opinion to be the only truth,  nothing but the truth in the increasingly Orwellian climate striking the western world One does no ask just one person but many, at different times different places.  On your idea of fact then the people who survived the Holocaust cannot be believed too I suppose!!!  Its their statements that provided the evidence of who was responsible, so the triels were  what exactly?

 

Are you just trying to tell me that anything that questions set opinions has to be dismissed out of hand, What next everything is conspiracy theory another way of trashing a personal opinion?

 

But let us discuss hypocracy for a change, you worte: Link is further back. Dismiss if you like, I don’t care. There are testimonies from guards, prisoners, academic experts of their field.  Relying on testomies according to (the Law of The Nameless one)  cannot always be belived unless a particular author gives the OK ??????? 

You missed the point I was making. An earlier, an equally ranty poster, hand-waved off the bbc link as unreliable eye witness reports. But obviously if you have a different drum to bang, counter eye witness reports are totally legitimate.

 

Your posting style seems familiar. I don’t recall the name but I do recall the big chunks of text.

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I tried to introduce the bigger picture, the historical context of 17 year of the USA trying to bring this socialist country into line.   But by expanding the picture further into a global context one starts to see actors no one has yet, actually mentioned.  This is possibly due to the fact its not been on the mainstream media propaganda  machinery.

The USA has sanction against CHINA ...who has a global trading strategy called the One belt - One road policy  that is designed to stretch 50-100 years into the future.  We in the democratic leading nations of the world, do not like upstarts or challengers to our covert domination of nearly all nation on earth.  China make better goods than anywhere, cheaper than anywhere,  making it the most profitable FREE trading nation on earth.  We have our TV's and loads of stuff all made in China in our home whereas out Governments have US made munitions and delivery systems around the country and world.  So China sells us stuff for peaceful social benefits and the USA sells us war goods under the guise of defence.

Crippling something  with a production line like China needed a different global strategy amongst the leading nations.  So the idea slowly  Pauperising people globally, (we have our own version called austerity) prevents ordinary people from purchasing Chinese goods, as they increasingly, do not have the disposable income.  This crushes Chinas annual growth down to an abysmal 6%  which is what the democratic world wants, which is for China not to be able to sell stuff, the people will with encouragement cause social unrest and the government could then be ruled by those that know what is best for ordinary people.  But that is a long way in the future. 

China has made large investments in Venezuela and South and Mid America too,  and the people love the stuff, but those running Uncle Sam’s Empire are far from amused.   Technologically China is 3-5 years ahead of any other country, which also makes it a security and defence problem for the leaders of the free world.

So its not just about Venezuela, or Cuba, or Niagara the TROIKA OF EVIL  as opposed to the former Axis of Evil and other propaganda catch phrases.  Bolton knows a catchy phrase when he hears one

Venezuela has the larges OIL RESERVES in the world, and when the US puppet is installed will privatise the Venezuelan oil industry under spurious economic reasons, and who will buy it up?  Well according to the talks Bolton has had with US oil companies,  it seems they are more than keen to help Venezuela get on it economic feet again, and help the people prosper.  This is a euphemism for helping themselves like they used to,   giving little back for the oil they more or less stole before Chavez took it back into state ownership..   Controlling the Venezuelan oil means they can at last control the,  out of control Saudis, the Wahabi terrorist machinery, that provides the ideological foundations to nearly all terrorist groups in the world.    It was Saudi  overproduction that smashed the high oil price on behalf of the USA  crashing the price  to smash the economies of Venezuela, to start with, as well as Russia and Iranian economies ...all dependent on ........you got it...OIL!!!

 

So lets all be glad the UK foreign policy is dictated to by the USA who knows what is best for ordinary people on our world.  They love TV, and endless war is what the US economy is based on.  We do pretty good too and in Yemen which also has sanctions as well as all borders controlled to keep the Iranians, as well as food and medicine out, we are helping the Saudis reduce the population to a more manageable size as we and the Americans always have the downtrodden people in mind, who want freedom.  The UK and the USA give them freedom through death, as in Iraq, Libya Syria, and wherever our democratically elected leaders leave their footprint globally.

I am British and support our Government's policy of population control!!!  If they will not use contraceptives, then in a free world they have chosen the only solution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Mod Note

 

Posts have been removed for copyright reasons, if you wish to refer to articles from other sites please provide a link to the site and a short précis of the article

 

Do not copy the entire thing and make a few minor changes to pretend it's all your own work

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Amen to that.
 

On 03/02/2019 at 01:44, justinelle said:

May I congratulate you on dismissing the whole historical process that has led to the situation today,  and it is good to her how well you have swallowed the simplistic media message.   But it proves you are an attentive person, and believe what you choose to cherry  pick as it make a bold statement and proves you are a good and conscientious citizen.   I would not deprive you for one second you daily serial of the right propaganda  message  you love to consume.   Orwell would be proud of you.

Have you ever heard of the term SANCTIONS, and do you know what they are used for, and do you know how they have been applied and for how long in Venezuela?  Obviously not!!! 

Do you remember Albright and her response to the death of a mere half a million children in  Iraq caused by sanctions?  She said it was worth it.   Sanctions today are he just the modern equivalent of a siege in the middle ages.  Sieges were designed to bring  a fortification to submission, then the conquer  took control and ripped off all the wealth. 

Today’s siege we call sanction are designed  to cripple a nation, subjugate it to the will of the power that want total control.  If it worked then there is no need to bomb all the infrastructure of the country and its people or create death squads to spread terror as the US has done so effectively in Syria, and Libya

Sanctions are designed to cripple a country economically, make people die due to lack of food medication  like in YEMEN today.   The concept is to create social unrest and the people should rise up against the government and put in a neo con puppet, like in Afghanistan, and Iraq, and the rest of the subjugated nations which includes the UK which started with Thatcher.  

Bolton stated they are after the oil the biggest reserve in the world, and if it takes starving a nation depriving it of goods  and trade, then who cares about the people when its  not about them at all, and never was and will never be, except to sell through the compliant media to people who want a simple explanation, and then they know who is the good guy and who is the bad.   It then allows people with little knowledge to have an opinion about something a few months ago they did not have a clue about, making them seem clever.   But they just regurgitate the media  propaganda as that is all they know.   Bless!!!

 

 

Would you care to elaborate?

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On 01/02/2019 at 09:11, banjodeano said:

Come on Phil, try not to make it personal, it doesn't help your weak argument.

I care about the Venezuelan people, thats why i dont want the Americans to go in and destroy another country to steal their wealth, how many times have they done it now? and you still believe they are wanting to help spread freedom and democracy AGAIN? they will probably start another civil war and leave thousands dead and homeless like the last few times they have stolen other countries wealth..

US President Donald Trump’s hyper-militaristic National Security Adviser John Bolton has told you the reason, are you not listening?

he says....

It will make a big difference to the United States economically if we could have American oil companies really invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezuela,”

Bolton admitted.

what about that do you not understand?

No one is saying that the people of Venezuela are not suffering, and no one is saying that it isnt corrupt in someway like our own country, but that doesnt give us an excuse to go and take their wealth..

And lastly its not Europe, its just the few that have to follow trump and America like lapdogs, there are many other European countries that do not agree and can see what is really happening

you saying Saudis have do well out of American explotation

On 02/02/2019 at 09:27, banjodeano said:

Because a country like China would give us a good hiding, with our American friends we only pick on the week and defenceless,

USA used to stand for something good, but that was a long long time ago, they are now nothing but a power hungry bully..

I cant believe that we are debating this subject, i cant believe how people are trying to defend Americas involvement in the overthrowing of yet another country, 

people follow like sheep

I'm at a bit of a loss you don't seek American involvement  or Chinese, are you saying they have their own infrastructure to sell oil, and release their wealth

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