Overthrowing the government of Venezuela

[phil752 10]

34 minutes ago, Marcey said:

I'm done answering the same questions again and again. You can choose to ignore my answers if you like but this is simply a red herring. Even if the Venezuelan leadership were corrupt, which you cannot prove and I do not believe, it still does not justify the USA interfering in the domestic affairs of another country.

 

Suppose Russia felt that the USA leaders were corrupt. Would it be OK for them to impose a regime change, recognize Hillary Clinton as leader instead of trump and impose sanctions on the USA that caused food and medicine shortages leading to the deaths of thousands? Short answer, No. nobody would think that was acceptable. 

me too really bed time , we can do it comfortably , other can not , i agree with your points of other regions of the world, however your defense of this one is indefensible, your started blaming Trump, yet the docs you supplied were signed by Obama,  Then Clinton you seem to blame most  not the  the rulers of the county itself.

 

https://reaction.life/ten-times-corbynistas-praised-chavez-maduros-venezuela/

Edited February 1, 2019 by phil752

[banjodeano 31]

8 hours ago, phil752 said:

Just watching This Week and seen death by TV on Ken Livingston, QT was not much better for the Labour rep there, trying to talk out,  his and Corbyn support for Venezuela

Its not just trump it the EU and other your Banjo icon is cool here you play it while people burn and die

Come on Phil, try not to make it personal, it doesn't help your weak argument.

I care about the Venezuelan people, thats why i dont want the Americans to go in and destroy another country to steal their wealth, how many times have they done it now? and you still believe they are wanting to help spread freedom and democracy AGAIN? they will probably start another civil war and leave thousands dead and homeless like the last few times they have stolen other countries wealth..

US President Donald Trump’s hyper-militaristic National Security Adviser John Bolton has told you the reason, are you not listening?

he says....

It will make a big difference to the United States economically if we could have American oil companies really invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezuela,”

Bolton admitted.

what about that do you not understand?

No one is saying that the people of Venezuela are not suffering, and no one is saying that it isnt corrupt in someway like our own country, but that doesnt give us an excuse to go and take their wealth..

And lastly its not Europe, its just the few that have to follow trump and America like lapdogs, there are many other European countries that do not agree and can see what is really happening

[alchresearch 214]

6 hours ago, Marcey said:

I'm done answering the same questions again and again. You can choose to ignore my answers if you like but this is simply a red herring.

You clearly don't know Sheffield or this forum at all.    Some of the people on here are professional arguers who would argue that the sun was green and no convincing will change them.  

 

New people who who sign up to push a particular agenda get it even worse!

 

But cheers for the entertainment!

[banjodeano 31]

2 minutes ago, alchresearch said:

You clearly don't know Sheffield or this forum at all.    Some of the people on here are professional arguers who would argue that the sun was green and no convincing will change them.  

 

New people who who sign up to push a particular agenda get it even worse!

 

But cheers for the entertainment!

 

no they are not..

Edited February 1, 2019 by banjodeano

[justinelle 0]

China is communist - with a high degree of central planning and nationalized industry. It possesses the largest high-speed rail network on Earth, has a space program with the ability to launch people into orbit, and has the world's second largest economy.

Conversely, the US hasn't a single mile of high-speed rail, currently pays the Russian Federation to launch its astronauts into orbit, and has thoroughly squandered its place as largest global economy in pursuit of aspirations toward unrealized global domination.

The US has a long history of interfering with democratically elected governments in Latin America and in Venezuela. The United States had deliberately caused this economic collapse, hyperinflation, and food and medicine shortages in the first place - specifically to undermine and destabilize first President Chavez' government and now Maduro's.

Economic destabilization is a key component in US regime change efforts - witnessed in all of Washington's past and current confrontations including against Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran, North Korea, and Russia for an array of alleged offences around "human rights" and fabricated threats to US national security.

The US Treasury Department aimed sanctions specifically at Venezuela's central bank and Petroleos de Venezuela - Venezuela's state-owned oil and gas company to restrict financing and to block transfers - while the US and allied OPEC members acted in concert to lower global oil prices - not only to cripple Venezuela's oil-based economy - but those of other US adversaries including Iran and Russia.

The US is funding virtually every aspect of opposition operations - from media and legal affairs, to indoctrination and political planning, to interference in the economy and the leveraging of "human rights" to shield US-funded agitators from any attempt to arrest them. While the nature of the US government's extensive meddling in Venezuela remains intentionally covert - seek to entirely overwrite Venezuelan institutions, governance, and law, replacing it with an obedient US-sponsored client regime and system of administration. US-funded opposition groups, focus on hording certain essential goods creating artificial shortages while armed gangs hired by wealthy business and land owners ravage state-backed farmers and industries to further exasperate prices, supply, and demand.

According to US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo - the impetus for Washington's sudden interest in Venezuela is the suffering of the Venezuelan people. Meanwhile in Yemen of the most successful countries where purposely starving million is also part of the plan, Venezuela sits on an ocean of proven oil reserves. It has been openly slated for regime change by the US for years, for Washington's, not Venezuela's benefit.

In other instances of economic warfare, large sums of Venezuelan gold have been withheld in the UK which refuses to return it to the Venezuelan government.
.
It is clear that significant efforts have been made to cripple Venezuela's ability to profit from its oil with even the US media and those it interviews admitting the US is unsure of just how far to go - realizing that once the damaging sanctions are reversed, remaining, intact infrastructure will allow Venezuela to "provide a "petroeconomic recover" for the ailing country."

Conversely - nations like Saudi Arabia whom even Hillary Clinton said was "providing clandestine financial and logistic support to ISIL and other radical Sunni groups in the region," and undeniably among the worst human rights abusers on Earth - has escaped not only sanctions, but even the most basic condemnation for its serial violations of international law and rights abuses.

This stark contrast helps illustrate the true, politically-motivated nature of US sanctions arrayed against targeted nations with but the thinnest rhetorical veneer applied to obtain public support.

Sanctions and economic warfare have been aimed at Venezuela just as the US has done with the numerous other nations it has overthrown, invaded, and otherwise destroyed - or those that it is trying to overthrow and destroy.

Venezuela is another textbook case of US-backed regime change.

[Phanerothyme 12]

just a sec

7 minutes ago, justinelle said:

China is communist - with a high degree of central planning and nationalized industry. It possesses the largest high-speed rail network on Earth, has a space program with the ability to launch people into orbit, and has the world's second largest economy.

It also executes tens of thousands of people a year, and harvests the organs of the executed to sell to wealthy transplant recipients.

What a role model.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Phanerothyme
Stupid quoting javascript

[Phanerothyme 12]

7 hours ago, Marcey said:

Suppose Russia felt that the USA leaders were corrupt. Would it be OK for them to impose a regime change, recognize Hillary Clinton as leader instead of Trump, demand new elections and impose sanctions on the USA that caused food and medicine shortages leading to the deaths of thousands? Short answer, No. nobody would think that was acceptable. 

I think that the reality was they thought that Clinton wasn't corrupt enough, so the Russians put their weight behind trump. Judging by the investigation it amounts to attempted regime change.

[Phanerothyme 12]

8 hours ago, Marcey said:

No they haven't. Please provide an example. I challenged this before. What has the Venezuelan Government done that has not been done successfully elsewhere. Simply claiming something does not make it so.

Rule by decree is the sine qua non of any dictatorial regime. Maduro rules by decree. QED.

8 hours ago, Marcey said:

No. You think wrong. There is no legally binding agreement that empowers the west to "intervene" and overturn the result of an election. Maduro is the democratically elected leader of that country as recognised by the UN. As signatories to the UN charter, the USA and other countries are bound by it's terms.

The only law at this level is realpolitik, even you must realise that. The right to intervene is measured in soft and hard power, not in the kind of international legal niceties that every country can simply ignore if it suits them

8 hours ago, Marcey said:

The Maduro Government doesn't seem to have absolute power as far as I can see. You can say catchy phrases all day, unless you can tie it down to actual facts (actual evidence of corruption in Venezuela) it's just a meaningless slogan that does nothing to further this debate.

No one suggested it, but the concentration of power around the office of the President is well documented, and the tendency for power to corrupt is well known. Couple this with the obvious stuffing of the Supreme Court with party loyalists, the formation of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice assuming leglislative powers from the elected national assembly, the driving out of indepenent broadcasters, (RCTV) - and you have what amounts to a dictatorship.

8 hours ago, Marcey said:

Then actually make that case instead of simply declaring that it has been made already. Who is persecuting the middle class? What's your evidence for that?

The treatment of those hostile to Maduro's reign, particularly the legal professionals in the opposition.

8 hours ago, Marcey said:

From what I've heard the majority of the middle class supports Maduro. Just saying it doesnt make it so. The flight of wealth is the responsibility of the individuals who control that wealth. It has nothing to do with the government. If Maduro tried to stop capital flight with capital controls everyone would be up in arms claiming he was breaching their human rights. What government financial corruption? You're just making wild accusations. Lets see evidence if you have it. Rule by decree? You mean like US executive orders or the NDAA 2012 sections 1021 - 1022? What "rule by decree" is Maduro being accused of anyway?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/16/venezuelan-president-nicolas-maduro-given-power-to-rule-by-decree

8 hours ago, Marcey said:

 

So you concede that the policies of Maduro and Chavez have benefited millions. Finally we are getting somewhere. That probably goes a long way to explaining how these leaders won elections. If the state does fail then yes people will be worse off. No argument here. The dispute comes in determining why the state failed. Was it the result of well meaning but failed policies or was it the result of a western regime change agenda in order to steal the wealth of that country. If the country is destroyed by external forces then I say those external forces are to blame, not the poor saps in office who were doing their best.

The policies of Stalin and Hitler benefitted millions. For a time.  But the ends do not justify the means ...

[nightrider 13]

9 hours ago, Marcey said:

No they haven't. Please provide an example. I challenged this before. What has the Venezuelan Government done that has not been done successfully elsewhere. Simply claiming something does not make it so.

 

No. You think wrong. There is no legally binding agreement that empowers the west to "intervene" and overturn the result of an election. Maduro is the democratically elected leader of that country as recognised by the UN. As signatories to the UN charter, the USA and other countries are bound by it's terms.

 

The Maduro Government doesn't seem to have absolute power as far as I can see. You can say catchy phrases all day, unless you can tie it down to actual facts (actual evidence of corruption in Venezuela) it's just a meaningless slogan that does nothing to further this debate.

 

Then actually make that case instead of simply declaring that it has been made already. Who is persecuting the middle class? What's your evidence for that? From what I've heard the majority of the middle class supports Maduro. Just saying it doesnt make it so. The flight of wealth is the responsibility of the individuals who control that wealth. It has nothing to do with the government. If Maduro tried to stop capital flight with capital controls everyone would be up in arms claiming he was breaching their human rights. What government financial corruption? You're just making wild accusations. Lets see evidence if you have it. Rule by decree? You mean like US executive orders or the NDAA 2012 sections 1021 - 1022? What "rule by decree" is Maduro being accused of anyway?

 

So you concede that the policies of Maduro and Chavez have benefited millions. Finally we are getting somewhere. That probably goes a long way to explaining how these leaders won elections. If the state does fail then yes people will be worse off. No argument here. The dispute comes in determining why the state failed. Was it the result of well meaning but failed policies or was it the result of a western regime change agenda in order to steal the wealth of that country. If the country is destroyed by external forces then I say those external forces are to blame, not the poor saps in office who were doing their best.

Its the result of both - its well documented that  a component of the  disaster was removing the people from PDVSA who knew how to run an oil company and replacing them regime lackeys who knew nothing about it.

 

[Marcey 0]

9 hours ago, phil752 said:

`...however your defense of this one is indefensible...

No it isn't. The Maduro Government has done nothing wrong that you can find. Having a rich daughter is not a crime. It's easy to make money when you are related to the president and this does not imply corruption.

 

9 hours ago, phil752 said:

.... your started blaming Trump, yet the docs you supplied were signed by Obama,  Then Clinton you seem to blame most  not the  the rulers of the county itself.

i have not blamed any specific American. I think those people are simply puppets. I'm blaming the USA regime in general, including wealthy people not in government. You are correct that I do not blame the Maduro government at all. They have not done anything wrong that anybody can prove or that is not done elsewhere in countries the USA is friends with. .

2 hours ago, justinelle said:

China is communist - with a high degree of central planning and nationalized industry. It possesses the largest high-speed rail network on Earth, has a space program with the ability to launch people into orbit, and has the world's second largest economy.

Conversely, the US hasn't a single mile of high-speed rail, currently pays the Russian Federation to launch its astronauts into orbit, and has thoroughly squandered its place as largest global economy in pursuit of aspirations toward unrealized global domination.

The US has a long history of interfering with democratically elected governments in Latin America and in Venezuela. The United States had deliberately caused this economic collapse, hyperinflation, and food and medicine shortages in the first place - specifically to undermine and destabilize first President Chavez' government and now Maduro's.

Economic destabilization is a key component in US regime change efforts - witnessed in all of Washington's past and current confrontations including against Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran, North Korea, and Russia for an array of alleged offences around "human rights" and fabricated threats to US national security.

The US Treasury Department aimed sanctions specifically at Venezuela's central bank and Petroleos de Venezuela - Venezuela's state-owned oil and gas company to restrict financing and to block transfers - while the US and allied OPEC members acted in concert to lower global oil prices - not only to cripple Venezuela's oil-based economy - but those of other US adversaries including Iran and Russia.

The US is funding virtually every aspect of opposition operations - from media and legal affairs, to indoctrination and political planning, to interference in the economy and the leveraging of "human rights" to shield US-funded agitators from any attempt to arrest them. While the nature of the US government's extensive meddling in Venezuela remains intentionally covert - seek to entirely overwrite Venezuelan institutions, governance, and law, replacing it with an obedient US-sponsored client regime and system of administration. US-funded opposition groups, focus on hording certain essential goods creating artificial shortages while armed gangs hired by wealthy business and land owners ravage state-backed farmers and industries to further exasperate prices, supply, and demand.

According to US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo - the impetus for Washington's sudden interest in Venezuela is the suffering of the Venezuelan people. Meanwhile in Yemen of the most successful countries where purposely starving million is also part of the plan, Venezuela sits on an ocean of proven oil reserves. It has been openly slated for regime change by the US for years, for Washington's, not Venezuela's benefit.

In other instances of economic warfare, large sums of Venezuelan gold have been withheld in the UK which refuses to return it to the Venezuelan government.
.
It is clear that significant efforts have been made to cripple Venezuela's ability to profit from its oil with even the US media and those it interviews admitting the US is unsure of just how far to go - realizing that once the damaging sanctions are reversed, remaining, intact infrastructure will allow Venezuela to "provide a "petroeconomic recover" for the ailing country."

Conversely - nations like Saudi Arabia whom even Hillary Clinton said was "providing clandestine financial and logistic support to ISIL and other radical Sunni groups in the region," and undeniably among the worst human rights abusers on Earth - has escaped not only sanctions, but even the most basic condemnation for its serial violations of international law and rights abuses.

This stark contrast helps illustrate the true, politically-motivated nature of US sanctions arrayed against targeted nations with but the thinnest rhetorical veneer applied to obtain public support.

Sanctions and economic warfare have been aimed at Venezuela just as the US has done with the numerous other nations it has overthrown, invaded, and otherwise destroyed - or those that it is trying to overthrow and destroy.

Venezuela is another textbook case of US-backed regime change.

Wow! I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Marcey 0]

1 hour ago, Phanerothyme said:

I think that the reality was they thought that Clinton wasn't corrupt enough, so the Russians put their weight behind trump. Judging by the investigation it amounts to attempted regime change.

You are going off topic but I'll bite. There is zero evidence of Russian interference in the US elections. If there were any evidence it would have been found by now. They have been looking for two years and found squat. All the indictments and arrests are related to domestic things happening since the election such as misleading prosecutors by mistake (Michael Flynn) or lying to cover up impropriety with porn stars (Michael Cohen). Nothing found so far implies any collusion with Russia whatsoever. The whole investigation in to Russian collusion in Trumps election victory is a conspiracy theory devised by the losers of the election to blame their defeat on someone other than themselves. Clinton lost because she is one of the most corrupt people in the USA. Half the country voted for trump and he won. Suggesting people only voted for trump because of $1000 worth of twitter advertising placed by Russia  is insulting to millions of people who cast their vote for trump and insulting to the intelligence of everyone else who knows it costs millions and millions to get elected in America. Calling everyone who supports trump a "Russian bot" flies in the face of the millions of people who support trump and say so on social media.

[Broakham 10]

15 minutes ago, Marcey said:

 

Wow! I couldn't have put it better myself.

That's brilliant!!! Now you and Justinelle can go and get a room and feed each others delusional paranoia.