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Overthrowing the government of Venezuela

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That was 5 years ago. So in your judgement did they succeed?

2 minutes ago, Marcey said:

Evidence the government of Venezuela is trying to improve human rights in the country .

 

http://docstore.ohchr.org/SelfServices/FilesHandler.ashx?enc=6QkG1d%2fPPRiCAqhKb7yhssbM7JCwZtFkfxb2j9CZsrmU4MqZ3yM92SWgn9haYfnBII1twvTvqUMii1U%2bn2gk2YSm%2b7YHuaXh2%2fNi%2fY5l%2byu6BNrrThQjbL3yFLivcdLF

Phanerothyme, please give me time to reply to your concerns. You are too fast for me.

 

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13 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

You are saying that the claims by HRW are purely  a smokescreen?

No. I'm suggesting that the claims of defending human rights made by the USA as justification to overthrow the democratically elected government of Venezuela is a smokescreen. I'm also suggesting that HRW is not a definitive guide to human rights and is riddled with it's own agendas and biases.

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43 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

Protecting human rights is much cheaper than brutal repression. Not least because the longer you do it for the cheaper it gets, whilst  the bill for effective repression tends to get progressively larger.

This is no doubt true but it is not my contention that protecting human rights is cheaper/more costly than brutal repression. Sanctions probably affect your ability to do either. 

 

43 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

where is your evidence that  " Human rights in Venezuela would improve significantly if the country were not under economic attack. "

As I said (and you tacitly agreed) protecting human rights costs at least some money. More money would be available if the country were not under economic attack. The Venezuelan government has a duty to protect its citizenry enshrined in it's constitution.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Venezuela

Quote

 

The constitution recognises civil rights, such as the freedom of expression, assembly, and political participation are included, as well as socio-economic rights, such as the right to employment, housing, and health care.

 

Surely the government may lie and leave its obligations unfulfilled but in the absence of evidence that they would, we have to take the constitution at face value. 

 

People also have a basic right to food and not to be starving. The economic attacks are causing shortages of food.

 

41 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

If you can't tell the difference between a characterisation and a comparison, then truly, what is the point?

Dictionary result for characterization "a description of the distinctive nature or features of someone or something."

 

A comparison or example is a perfectly acceptable part of a description.

 

34 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

 

"Better than some places, not as good as others" is a competely meaningless statement. You could say it about the quality of anything that isn't platonically perfect or non-existent.

 
No it isn't. You could define the number four as a whole number greater than the number three but smaller than the number five. You are just splitting hairs and trying to reject my answer for spurious reasons. I do not have the time (nor the knowledge) to go in to detail about the treatment of every single specific human right in Venezuela. I summarized the situation adequately but concisely. This may not be the answer you were hoping for but it is my answer. This is how I would characterize the human rights situation. I'm unsure as to what kind of alternative answer you were expecting. 
 
34 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

What's Guantanamo Bay like as a holiday camp for young children?"  - "Oh, better than some places, not as good as others"

This is a facile argument. There is no comparison whatsoever between a holiday camp and an illegal prison. Holiday camps and prisons are completely different things. Ditto for cures to oral health issues vs gunshot wounds. There is however a meaningful comparison between different nation states and their respective treatment of human rights.

 

34 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

Sorry are you citing the UK intelligence agencies from 20 years ago as your evidence?

 

No.

 

 

Edited by Marcey

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I thought this was a post for a plan for the Sheffield Forum summer adventure.

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Chavez was doing great things for Venezuela before his untimely death. Since then the USA seems to have got involved and the country has gone to pot.

Maybe an attempt to destablise the country?

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no one has still answered the question, if this was all about human rights, why are we still trading with Saudi Arabia and selling them weapons to to kill innocent people in Yemen?

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8 hours ago, alchresearch said:

You clearly don't know Sheffield or this forum at all.    Some of the people on here are professional arguers who would argue that the sun was green and no convincing will change them.  

 

New people who who sign up to push a particular agenda get it even worse!

 

But cheers for the entertainment!

This post made my day! So true!  🤣

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This is nothing new for the US, as from the start its a similar blueprint used for Syria, Ukraine, Iraq, saving the population from a dictator.  As for those poor people in Yemen,  millions starving while being bombed by British bombs, we are so concerned with Venezuela, because our two faced, self interested politicians really care about people,  hence the continuation of austerity over here.  

 

It took the French a bit of time before austerity forced them onto the streets, meanwhile the British are so used to being fed crap,  its become part of the natural diet, one or five a day,  and I can only hope it continues to be served long after Brexit or who knows what will happen.

 

The US is continuously  replacing one  recalcitrant government with another while having zero respect for international law.  THis was previously undertaken covertly but is now, in the case of Venezuela, being done openly and brazenly.

Edited by justinelle
missed a bit

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3 hours ago, banjodeano said:

no one has still answered the question, if this was all about human rights, why are we still trading with Saudi Arabia and selling them weapons to to kill innocent people in Yemen?

anyone?

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5 hours ago, banjodeano said:

no one has still answered the question, if this was all about human rights, why are we still trading with Saudi Arabia and selling them weapons to to kill innocent people in Yemen?

You’ve already answered it, we sell them lots and lots of weapons. The good stuff too. You could argue that Saudi is one of the few stable states in an unstable region but, I’d guess, from the UKs position itsdown to the amount of money they give us.

 

Why don’t we lean in China, why did darfour get ignored by everyone, Sri Lanka got a totally free pass on the Tamils. Should we get involved in all, none, some? 

1 hour ago, banjodeano said:

anyone?

And now you’re talking to yourself, that’s a sign you know.

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How the unprincipled are play with the most powerful global military in the name of US Hegemony, against the defenceless for freedom and de..mock…racy   Knowledge changes perceptions!

 

John Bolton, took steps to avoid being drafted for the war in Vietnam. Bolton ensuring that he would not be drafted, writing in his Yale University 25 year class reunion book, “I confess I had no desire to die in a Southeast Asian rice paddy.”  Bolton joined the National Guard and stayed home. He also enrolled at Yale to study law before moving smoothly into politics as an advocate of might is right, climbing the greasy neocon pole in Washington to positions of influence.

Bolton continues to have, its most resolute champion and defender, of the Iraq war John Bolton lack of remorse or contrition over the catastrophe inflicted on the country and its people, not forgetting the destabilization of the entire region continues.

Bolton was key in Trump’s unconscionable decision to unilaterally pull out of the P5+1 Iran Nuclear Deal (JCPOA) in May 2018, followed by the return of even more stringent sanctions on Iran than had been in place prior to the deal. He was also a prime mover of Trump’s decision to withdraw from the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty with Russia, laying the ground for a new arms race.

The man, to be frank, is a thug in a suit, who since taking up the role of Trump’s national security adviser in April 2018, has rampaged around the world like a vicious dog, intoxicated with the power to threaten, intimidate and bully at will. Bolton is committed to punishing any nation on earth who dare resist the demands of Washington.


Someone who knows Bolton more than most is Richard Painter, a lawyer who served in the Bush administration. When Bolton’s appointment as Trump’s national security adviser was announced, Painter tweeted his dismay along with a chilling warning: “John Bolton was by far the most dangerous man we had in the entire eight years of the Bush Administration. Hiring him as the president's top national security advisor is an invitation to war, perhaps nuclear war. This must be stopped at all costs.”

But meet Elliot Abram who is an expert ina particual field.  He was in charge of the CIA-backed death squads tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of Mayan Indians in Guatemala in the 1980's.. Abram’s U.S. trained death squads killed some 80,000 people in El Salvador, 200 – 250,000 in Guatemala and untold thousands in Nicaragua, He oversaw a campaign of mass murder and torture of indigenous people in Guatemala in the 1980s. Abrams was also linked to the 2002 coup in Venezuela that attempted to topple Hugo Chávez.


His death squad practices were designed to create terror and fear I the populations, with decapitating children, crucifying people, In one particular case, in 1985, an activist for the relatives of the disappeared, named Rosario Godoy, was abducted by the army. She was raped. Her mutilated body was found alongside that of her baby. The baby’s fingernails had been torn out. When Elliott Abrams was asked about this accident, he affirmed also that they died in a traffic accident. This activist raped and mutilated, the baby with his fingernails pulled out, Abrams says it’s a traffic accident. El Salvador, In El Mozote, a U.S.-trained battalion massacred more than 500 civilians, slitting the throats of children along the way, He later described the results of his policy, in El Salvador as a fabulous achievement. In El Salvador his death squads had a particular practice of cutting off the genitals of their victims, stuffing them in their mouths and putting them on open display on the roadsides

Abrams said it was all necessary in the context of the Cold War.

This is Elliott Abrams, who has now been put in charge of key aspects of the U.S. policy toward Venezuela by TRUMP.

THis is all in the public Domain you can look it up, 

This is just a taste, for those that really want to make a meal of it.  ttps://theintercept.com/2019/01/30/elliott-abrams-venezuela-coup/

Edited by justinelle
bits missing

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If you're going to paraphrase Russia Today so closely, you should probably put it within quotes.

For clarity.

Edited by Phanerothyme

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