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Overthrowing the government of Venezuela

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10 minutes ago, Marcey said:

Probably not as good as in the West but a lot better than places like Saudi Arabia.

That's a comparison, rather than a characterisation - you can't just throw out words like "Saudi" and "Arabia" which is a fundamentalist theocratic kingdom with no democracy, and expect comparisons, however favourable, with the liberal, open, free and fair democracy of Venezuela and expect them to stick, can you?

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Recall Venezuela is under siege with economic sanctions that are causing shortages. This has a knock on effect for human rights.

Why?

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Human rights in Venezuela would improve significantly if the country were not under economic attack. The Human rights situation will certainly deteriorate if there is an attempted regime change and an unelected foreign puppet is installed as leader or if there is an invasion by the USA or one of it's proxies.

Again, it's all very well to say that, but where's your evidence?

Edited by Phanerothyme
Gramma!

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Just now, Phanerothyme said:

 

That's a comparison, rather than a characterisation - you can't just throw out words like "Saudi" and "Arabia" which is a fundamentalist theocratic kingdom with no democracy, and expect comparisons, however favourable, with the liberal, open, free and fair democracy of Venezuela and expect them to stick, can you?

The purpose of the comparison is to show the hypocrisy of the USA. The oil wealth of Saudi Arabia is being stolen by it's leaders and sold to the USA at bargain prices. The oil wealth of Venezuela is attempted to be used to help the people of Venezuela. This is the reason for the USA's regime change policy. It has nothing to do with human rights. If the USA were concerned with human rights they would pick on Saudi Arabia first. Alas lots of countries are lacking in human rights. Venezuela is by no means the worst and they are trying their hardest to improve that situation. The USA is exaggerating the claims of human rights abuses as a smokescreen to cover up their desire to loot the wealth of that country. This is my main argument, not that Venezuela is a bastion of human rights.

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11 minutes ago, Marcey said:

Probably not as good as in the West but a lot better than places like Saudi Arabia.

 

Recall Venezuela is under siege with economic sanctions that are causing shortages. This has a knock on effect for human rights. Human rights in Venezuela would improve significantly if the country were not under economic attack. The Human rights situation will certainly deteriorate if there is an attempted regime change and an unelected foreign puppet is installed as leader or if there is an invasion by the USA or one of it's proxies.

 

Can you provide a source for this claim?

 

A holding prison for secret police cannot be that secret if you know about it. Are people being tortured and imprisoned without charge? Where is the evidence for that. Is this simply more parroting of lies and propaganda ...or is it a real thing, like the torture, indefinite detention and imprisonment without charge of prisoners at Guantánamo bay, Abu Ghraib  or prisons under the control of Western backed Syrian opposition forces (aka ISIS)?

Link is further back. Dismiss if you like, I don’t care. There are testimonies from guards, prisoners, academic experts of their field.

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5 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

Why?

Why do economic sanctions have a knock on effect for human rights?

 

Because protecting human rights often costs money. Sanctions reduce the money available to the government. If we gave Venezuela their £1bn back, they could use it to investigate claims of human rights abuses. By withholding it we tie the hands of their government who now have enough problems just trying to feed the citizenry.

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1 minute ago, Marcey said:

The purpose of the comparison is to show the hypocrisy of the USA.

Thing is you gave me a comparison, I was interested in your characterisation of the state of human rights in Venezuela, so don't go skipping off topic about Saudi when it bears no relation to the question at hand.

1 minute ago, Marcey said:

The oil wealth of Saudi Arabia is being stolen by it's leaders and sold to the USA at bargain prices.

Evidence please?

1 minute ago, Marcey said:

The oil wealth of Venezuela is attempted to be used to help the people of Venezuela.

Evidence please?

1 minute ago, Marcey said:

This is the reason for the USA's regime change policy. It has nothing to do with human rights. If the USA were concerned with human rights they would pick on Saudi Arabia first. Alas lots of countries are lacking in human rights. Venezuela is by no means the worst and they are trying their hardest to improve that situation.

Evidence please?

1 minute ago, Marcey said:

The USA is exaggerating the claims of human rights abuses as a smokescreen to cover up their desire to loot the wealth of that country. This is my main argument, not that Venezuela is a bastion of human rights.

You are saying that the claims by HRW are purely  a smokescreen?

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52 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

Again, it's all very well to say that, but where's you're evidence?

Nicaragua, Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine...etc. Examples of these policies in action are legion. Perhaps you could provide an example from the last 30 years where a successful US regime change has lead to an improvement in human rights for the affected country?

45 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

Link is further back. Dismiss if you like, I don’t care. There are testimonies from guards, prisoners, academic experts of their field.

You have not linked to any evidence for this claim. Eyewitness testimony is also poor quality evidence. People lie all the time..

Edited by Marcey

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1 minute ago, Marcey said:

Why do economic sanctions have a knock on effect for human rights?

 

Because protecting human rights often costs money. Sanctions reduce the money available to the government. If we gave Venezuela their £1bn back, they could use it to investigate claims of human rights abuses. By withholding it we tie the hands of their government who now have enough problems just trying to feed the citizenry.

Protecting human rights is much cheaper than brutal repression. Not least because the longer you do it for the cheaper it gets, whilst  the bill for effective repression tends to get progressively larger.

1 minute ago, Marcey said:

Nicaragua, Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine...etc.

 

Sorry I should have been clearer - where is your evidence that  " Human rights in Venezuela would improve significantly if the country were not under economic attack. "

 

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2 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

Thing is you gave me a comparison, I was interested in your characterisation of the state of human rights in Venezuela, so don't go skipping off topic about Saudi when it bears no relation to the question at hand.

i gave you my characterizations. Better than some places, not as good as others. Again. My argument is not that Venezuela is a bastion of human rights. My argument is that the USA regime change agenda is driven by a desire to steal oil.

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If you can't tell the difference between a characterisation and a comparison, then truly, what is the point?

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2 minutes ago, Marcey said:

Evidence the House of Saud steals the countries oil wealth for themselves.

 

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/96RIYADH4784_a.html

 

6 minutes ago, Marcey said:

i gave you my characterizations. Better than some places, not as good as others.

"Better than some places, not as good as others" is a competely meaningless statement. You could say it about the quality of anything that isn't platonically perfect or non-existent.

"What's Guantanamo Bay like as a holiday camp for young children?"  - "Oh, better than some places, not as good as others"

"Is shooting yourself in the head a good cure for toothache?" - "Oh, you know, "Better than some places, not as good as others"
 

6 minutes ago, Marcey said:

Again. My argument is not that Venezuela is a bastion of human rights. My argument is that the USA regime change agenda is driven by a desire to steal oil.

Sorry are you citing the UK intelligence agencies from 20 years ago as your evidence?

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12 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

Evidence please?

Evidence the government of Venezuela is trying to improve human rights in the country .

 

http://docstore.ohchr.org/SelfServices/FilesHandler.ashx?enc=6QkG1d%2fPPRiCAqhKb7yhssbM7JCwZtFkfxb2j9CZsrmU4MqZ3yM92SWgn9haYfnBII1twvTvqUMii1U%2bn2gk2YSm%2b7YHuaXh2%2fNi%2fY5l%2byu6BNrrThQjbL3yFLivcdLF

 

 

Phanerothyme, please give me time to reply to your concerns. You are too fast for me.

Edited by Marcey

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