Overthrowing the government of Venezuela

[Marcey 0]

2 hours ago, Phanerothyme said:

Rule by decree is the sine qua non of any dictatorial regime. Maduro rules by decree. QED.

No he doesn't. Simply saying it again and again does not make it so. If you have evidence to back up your claim then lets hear it. It shouldn't be hard to find. Decree's are pubic announcements written down in law. What Decree's has Maduro made? You still haven't provided one single example yet I provided you two examples of decree's made in the USA. For your convenience here they are again. Executive orders are routine and the NDAA 2012 sections 1021-1022. That's two examples of decrees I have provided while you have yet to provide a single one from Venezuela.

 

2 hours ago, Phanerothyme said:

The right to intervene is measured in soft and hard power, not in the kind of international legal niceties that every country can simply ignore if it suits them

The USA has no right to intervene. The USA is perhaps world leader in ignoring international law when it suits them. What you are saying is in effect "international law is optional and it's OK to break it." If any country can simply ignore international law then a) what's the point of having it and b) how can the USA use breaches of international law as justification for any regime change ever?

Edited February 1, 2019 by Marcey

[Marcey 0]

1 hour ago, Phanerothyme said:

No one suggested it, but the concentration of power around the office of the President is well documented, and the tendency for power to corrupt is well known. Couple this with the obvious stuffing of the Supreme Court with party loyalists, the formation of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice assuming leglislative powers from the elected national assembly, the driving out of indepenent broadcasters, (RCTV) - and you have what amounts to a dictatorship.

If the concentration of power is well documented...lets see some documents (and proper official documents from either Venezuela or the UN, not simply daily mail articles or opinions by pro US warmongers). You are just parroting propaganda with zero evidence. If the tendency for power is to corrupt then the USA by deffinition must have a more corrupt administration since they are so much more powerful than Venezuela. Obviously stuffing the supreme court with party loyalists is par for the course in every country. Most notably the USA where the supreme court appointments are a well known and televised battleground for the two main parties. 

 

The National Assembly was set up by Hugo Chavez in 2000. It's a creation of the socialist governments that you are rallying against. In 2017 it was determined that election fraud had taken place in the National assembly and the supreme court (or supreme court of justice as it is known in Venezuela) took over it's powers. This decision was reversed a short time later after widespread popular opposition and new elections to the national assembly were held instead. The opposition parties boycotted this election. That's their own fault. Presumably they did this because they would lose, knowing they were no longer able to fraudulently rig the election as they had in done 2016 as determined by the supreme court of that country. Members of the supreme court are appointed by the national assembly itself, not by president Maduro. The claims you are making are an attempt to blind people with jargon hoping that if you throw enough mud some of it will stick. A cursory glance at the facts shows that while there are disputes in Venezuelans politics, they are no different to any other country. There are similar claims and counter claims of election fraud in both the USA election of Trump and the Brexit referendum. Nothing that has happened in Venezuela even comes close to justifying the overthrow of the democratically elected president. 

 

In Venezuela there are maybe dozens of private TV channels hostile to the socialist governments and only one state owned TV channel in support. I don't know the details of why RCTV's license was not renewed however having witnessed the appalling behaviour of the private TV networks in Venezuela during the 2002 coup attempt I'm not in the least bit surprised that some channels have been since penalized. A license to broadcast a TV channel is a privilege granted by government (in all countries) and is subject to certain rules and responsibilities. In the UK, a serial violator of OFCOM's rules will have their license revoked.

 

Nothing in your statement above amounts to anything even close to a dictatorship.  

[Marcey 0]

2 hours ago, Phanerothyme said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/16/venezuelan-president-nicolas-maduro-given-power-to-rule-by-decree

The democratically elected parliament voted to give extra powers to the president in response to the economic siege the country is under. This is not unusual. In France a state of emergency granted extra powers to the government in response to terrorist attacks. In the USA the president is contemplating declaring a state of emergency to build a border wall.

 

Also the Guardian is another example of propaganda riddled with state actors. "See...look what it says in the propaganda" is not a valid argument. Incidently in 2014 the Guardian held the opposite view about the situation in Venezuela. While John Kerry and the democrats were pushing for war, the Guardian was claiming things were not so bad and that the USA was engaging in a class war against Venezuela. The Guardian has since changed their tune and fallen in to line with USA propaganda efforts.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/20/venezuela-revolt-truth-not-terror-campaign

 

2 hours ago, Phanerothyme said:

The policies of Stalin and Hitler benefitted millions. For a time.  But the ends do not justify the means ...

 

 

Once again I challenge you to find an example of one policy or law that Venezuela has enacted that was dictatorial in nature or not something done successfully in other socialistic countries like Norway. All you are doing is name calling. Throwing words out there like "Hitler" or "Stalin" is not in itself a valid argument. What has Maduro done that is even remotely like anything Hitler did?

Edited February 1, 2019 by Marcey

[Phanerothyme 12]

17 minutes ago, Marcey said:

The democratically elected parliament voted to give extra powers to the president in response to the economic siege the country is under. This is not unusual. In France a state of emergency granted extra powers to the government in response to terrorist attacks. In the USA the president is contemplating declaring a state of emergency to build a border wall.

 

Also the guardian is another example of propaganda riddled with state actors. "See...look what it says in the propaganda" is not a valid argument. Incidently in 2014 the guardian held the opposite view about the situation in Venezuela. While John Kerry and the democrats were pushing for war, the guardian was claiming things were not so bad and that the USA was engaging in a class war against Venezuela. The guardian has since changed their tune and fallen in to line with USA propaganda efforts.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/20/venezuela-revolt-truth-not-terror-campaign

 

 

Once again I challenge you to find an example of one policy or law that Venezuela has enacted that was dictatorial in nature or not something done successfully in other socialistic countries like Norway. All you are doing is name calling. Throwing world out there like"Hitler" or "Stalin" is not in itself a valid argument. What had Maduro done that is even remotely like anything Hitler did?

 

OK. You talk about propaganda riddled with state actors.

What are we to think of you, joining the forum and posting exclusively on one thread and one topic.

You clearly have a stake in this - what is it?

Or are we to treat you too as merely another propaganda channel, which by your insistence we should attach no veracity to?

Edited February 1, 2019 by Phanerothyme

[Marcey 0]

1 hour ago, nightrider said:

Its the result of both - its well documented that  a component of the  disaster was removing the people from PDVSA who knew how to run an oil company and replacing them regime lackeys who knew nothing about it.

 

That is not well documented at all. Lets see some documents. Internal PDVSA documents would be nice. It's not at all clear that what you are claiming has even happened. There are lots of talented people running the PDVSA. Even if what you say is true and that the current managers of PDVSA do not know how to run an oil company as well as their predecessors (a claim which I do not accept), The oil company still produces oil. lots of it. The problem is that US sanctions are preventing the country from profiting from the oil revenue. If PDVSA was so incompetent there would have been no need to place additional sanctions on them. This argument is a) false and b) a red herring. The cause of the shortages is the sanctions. Not the nationalizing of the oil company. Please find an example of one mistake made by the mis-management of PDVSA that has caused any shortages whatsoever, written down in a single document.

 

58 minutes ago, Broakham said:

That's brilliant!!! Now you and Justinelle can go and get a room and feed each others delusional paranoia.

Delusions and paranoia. Name calling much? Delusions cannot be backed up with facts. I have presented my facts in this thread. Where are the facts of people calling for the overthrow of Venezuela?

Edited February 1, 2019 by Marcey

[Marcey 0]

9 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

OK. You talk about propaganda riddled with state actors.

What are we to think of you, joining the forum and posting exclusively on one thread and one topic.

That I cannot possibly be a state controlled propagandist who, would have joined the forum long ago, posted lots of stuff on trivial issues to establish some credibility and who would blend in to the forum like a spy.

 

9 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

You clearly have a stake in this - what is it?

People are dying.

 

9 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

Or are we to treat you too as merely another propaganda channel, which by your insistence we should attach no veracity to?

Unlike propaganda, I have facts. Check them for yourself.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Marcey

[Phanerothyme 12]

18 minutes ago, Marcey said:

That I cannot possibly be a state controlled propagandist who, would have joined the forum long ago, posted lots of stuff on trivial issues to establish some credibility and who would blend in to the forum like a spy.

If you're insinuating that I'm somehow credible, then I demand you retract that vicious slur.

Quote

 

People are dying.

People are dying everywhere, all the time, so why your sudden interest in this forum and this thread? The fact that you're dissembling on the question only leads to more questions.

Quote

Unlike propaganda, I have facts. Check them for yourself.

We all have facts.

here are some -https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/venezuela#5a03f6

The situation in Venezuela is apalling. You lay the blame squarely on forces all outside Venezuela, whilst I suggest that the autocratic tendencies of the president and the powers that be are also contributing to the misery.
 

24 minutes ago, Marcey said:

Where are the facts of people calling for the overthrow of Venezuela?

Which people are calling for the "Overthrow of Venezuela" precisely? I'm afraid Trump or Macron don't really come on this forum very often...

Edited February 1, 2019 by Phanerothyme

[Marcey 0]

1 minute ago, Phanerothyme said:

If you're insinuating that I'm somehow credible, then I demand you retract that vicious slur.

I wasn't insinuating that.

 

2 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

People are dying everywhere, all the time, so why your sudden interest in this forum and this thread? The fact that you're dissembling on the question only leads to more questions.

Because very recently the topic of overthrowing the government of Venezuela has been pushed in the mainstream media. I started this thread and I don't have time to debate everything else on the forum.  Is starting and contributing to a thread itself evidence of anything other than an interest in the topic? I think you are clutching at straws.

 

7 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

We all have facts.

here are some -https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/venezuela#5a03f6

HRW is an American funded NGO that routinely goes along with pro imperialist western narratives. It's credibility has been challenged of late not least because of it's one sided criticism of Venezuela.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch

 

Quote

Human Rights Watch work in Venezuela became controversial in September 2008, when the country's government expelled two HRW staff members accused of "anti-state activities".[10] Then Foreign Minister Nicolas Maduro said, "These groups, dressed up as human rights defenders, are financed by the United States. They are aligned with a policy of attacking countries that are building new economic models."[11]

 

After HRW published a report (A Decade Under Chávez: Political Intolerance and Lost Opportunities for Advancing Human Rights in Venezuela)[12] documenting Chavez government abuses, 118 scholars, activists and film-makers from Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Mexico, the US, the UK, Venezuela and other countries signed a letter, written by US academics Miguel Tinker Salas, Gregory Wilpert and Greg Grandin, criticizing the organization for a perceived bias against the government of Venezuela. 

 

[Phanerothyme 12]

So how would you characterise the situation of human rights in Venezuela?

[tinfoilhat 11]

51 minutes ago, Marcey said:

The democratically elected parliament voted to give extra powers to the president in response to the economic siege the country is under. This is not unusual. In France a state of emergency granted extra powers to the government in response to terrorist attacks. In the USA the president is contemplating declaring a state of emergency to build a border wall.

 

Also the Guardian is another example of propaganda riddled with state actors. "See...look what it says in the propaganda" is not a valid argument. Incidently in 2014 the Guardian held the opposite view about the situation in Venezuela. While John Kerry and the democrats were pushing for war, the Guardian was claiming things were not so bad and that the USA was engaging in a class war against Venezuela. The Guardian has since changed their tune and fallen in to line with USA propaganda efforts.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/20/venezuela-revolt-truth-not-terror-campaign

 

 

 

Once again I challenge you to find an example of one policy or law that Venezuela has enacted that was dictatorial in nature or not something done successfully in other socialistic countries like Norway. All you are doing is name calling. Throwing words out there like "Hitler" or "Stalin" is not in itself a valid argument. What has Maduro done that is even remotely like anything Hitler did?

Has Norway converted a shopping a centre into a holding prison for their secret police, where Norwegian citizens are tortured and imprisoned without charge? Or are you saying this setup was voted through the Venezuelan government, and Norway could do it at any time?

[banjodeano 31]

1 hour ago, Broakham said:

That's brilliant!!! Now you and Justinelle can go and get a room and feed each others delusional paranoia.

The argument is lost when you have to result to personal insults..

[Marcey 0]

1 hour ago, Phanerothyme said:

So how would you characterise the situation of human rights in Venezuela?

Probably not as good as in the West but a lot better than places like Saudi Arabia.

 

Recall Venezuela is under siege with economic sanctions that are causing shortages. This has a knock on effect for human rights. Human rights in Venezuela would improve significantly if the country were not under economic attack. The Human rights situation will certainly deteriorate if there is an attempted regime change and an unelected foreign puppet is installed as leader or if there is an invasion by the USA or one of it's proxies.

 

1 hour ago, tinfoilhat said:

Has Norway converted a shopping a centre into a holding prison for their secret police, where Norwegian citizens are tortured and imprisoned without charge? Or are you saying this setup was voted through the Venezuelan government, and Norway could do it at any time?

Can you provide a source for this claim?

 

A holding prison for secret police cannot be that secret if you know about it. Are people being tortured and imprisoned without charge? Where is the evidence for that? Is this simply more parroting of lies and propaganda ...or is it a real thing, like the torture, indefinite detention and imprisonment without charge of prisoners at Guantánamo bay, Abu Ghraib  or prisons under the control of Western backed Syrian opposition forces (aka ISIS)?

Edited February 1, 2019 by Marcey