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Consequences of brexit [part 6] read first post before posting

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50 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

We should be moving on from the BIGGEST DEMOCRATIC VOTE that the UK electorate ever took part in, otherwise we are just going to be going over old ground. 

 

(...)  the electorate want?

A. The deal negotiatiated by the PM?

B. A no deal with the EU?  (No Brexit). 

It's very easy to move on from that whole "respect the democratic vote" argument: do as the Tories themselves did with the 1997 Welsh assembly referendum.

 

I note in passing that "no deal with the EU" ordinarily does not mean "no Brexit": it means Brexit without a withdrawal agreement, i.e. "a crash out Brexit". 

 

It's very important to be precise with words, because (apparently) a non-trivial portion of the British public still believes that Brexiting without an agreement means that things won't change for them. 

Edited by L00b

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I was under the impression Wales had a national assembly? Was the idea scrapped?

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45 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

all because the 651 highly paid, 'intelligent' individuals are incapable & FRIT of making a further decision based on 52% of the eligible voting population already giving them the green light, the question should be:

Does the electorate want?

A. The deal negotiatiated by the PM?

B. A no deal with the EU?  (No Brexit). 

The reason they are "incapable & FRIT" is because the various leave supporters can't agree on what sort of leave they want and May won't sort it out. Lets face it, the only reason leave won the referendum is because "leave" is so vague it could be presented as different, mutually incompatible, things to different people and allowed the leave campaigns to avoid answering difficult questions. May's failure to deal with this all along is why we are in the position we are now - she should have said "I'm not triggering article 50 until you leavers present a single version of leave that you agree on - no unicorns or rainbows allowed". She's repeatedly pushed the most important issue she has to deal with into the long grass in the hope she'll be able to present something as a fait accompli and not give parliament time to debate it properly. Just supposing her proposed deal gets through, do you think she'll spend the transition period negotiating a new trade deal or spend it avoiding defining what sort of trade deal we want to avoid having to deal with the differing views within her party?

 

Your option B is ambiguous. Do you mean leave with no deal or no brexit (i.e. remain)?

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Just now, woodview said:

I was under the impression Wales had a national assembly? Was the idea scrapped?

No.

 

But the Tories, including all current Brexit figureheads such as May, Fox and more, had zero issue voting against "the will of the democratic (Welsh) people" in Parliament at the time.

 

So, you know...sauce, goose, gander and all that :twisted:

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2 minutes ago, L00b said:

No.

 

But the Tories, including all current Brexit figureheads such as May, Fox and more, had zero issue voting against "the will of the democratic (Welsh) people" in Parliament at the time.

 

So, you know...sauce, goose, gander and all that :twisted:

May is a Remainer.

Regardless of the hot air, the narrow victory in a low turnout referendum was enacted.

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55 minutes ago, L00b said:

It's very easy to move on from that whole "respect the democratic vote" argument: do as the Tories themselves did with the 1997 Welsh assembly referendum, i.e. vote against its democratic outcome in Parliament.

 

I note in passing that "no deal with the EU" ordinarily does not mean "no Brexit", it means Brexit without a withdrawal agreement, i.e. "crash out Brexit". It's important to be precise, because apparently a non-trivial portion of the British public still believes that Brexiting without an agreement means that things won't change for them.

 

There isn't enough popcorn in the entire world to watch that one unfold, if it should.

I see we've bought into / convinced by the  term, ('Project Fear)' Crashing out' of Brexit & not moved on since 2016?. 

 

Really the emotive term 'Crashing out' should be left to where it really applies, to a Premiership football  club being beaten by a non league side. 

 

We've not crashed out of anything.  How many more times?  The UK undertook the biggest democratic vote in its history &  voted to leave the EU after months of debate.   Yes we voted to leave.  We didn't crash out of anything. 

 

If the majority 52%, didn't get it or weren't on board with the other 48%, I wasn't for the lack of trying by those trying to persuade us, (or trying to frighten us; (remember George Osborne's emergency budget; still waiting for the Russians to start WWIII)) 

 

Speaking of democratic votes.  Both Thatcher & Blair were both credited in their times with winning 'Landslides' with round just over 40% of the popular vote. 

 

What is a winning vote of 52% of the eligible voting population termed as then? 

 

As for the mention of the Welsh Assembly.  Can I just mention that vote the Irish Republic's vote on the Treaty of Lisbon in 2008 when the Irish voted against it & the EU made them do it again in 2009 & presumably this would have carried on until the Irish got it right? 

 

If politicians spend enough taxpayers money & have enough referendums, they'll wear the population down. 

 

Should be a warning! 

Edited by Baron99
Amendments

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Dominic Grieve on the Politics show 12.15 BBC 1.  Telling all that the Brexiteers made a "mistake". There you have it in a nut shell, the rich and wealthy know better than the surfs. Hopefully those who voted Brexit will be a little disturbed and angry that Grieve and his acolytes  dismiss them as mistake makers.  What a pompous prat he is.

 

I see that the "Right Honorable"  Baron Mandelson of Foy in the county of Herefordshire and Hartlepool in the county of Durham, Lord President of the Council, First Secretary of State, and Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills has been given air time again, waxing lyrically about how wonderful the EU is.  Is this the same Mandelson that had to leave the Government TWICE for been a naughty naughty boy.

 

Angel1.

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1 hour ago, ez8004 said:

The cross party draft bill for a second referendum will have TWO questions. 

 

- Remain

- The PM’s current deal

The problem there is they have no say into what any actual referendum questions will be as all they can do is propose some. Whatever happens primary legislation must be put forward before any referendum to be held. It must then be debated by parliament where any proposed questions will also be scrutinised. The Electoral Commission also plays a role in the running and legislation of a referendum. So basically its just not as easy as you make out.

 

Unless there is a drastic shift or change in politics then a no-deal is still the default in operation.

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9 minutes ago, apelike said:

The problem there is they have no say into what any actual referendum questions will be as all they can do is propose some. Whatever happens primary legislation must be put forward before any referendum to be held. It must then be debated by parliament where any proposed questions will also be scrutinised. The Electoral Commission also plays a role in the running and legislation of a referendum. So basically its just not as easy as you make out.

 

Unless there is a drastic shift or change in politics then a no-deal is still the default in operation.

There's some on here would propose:

Remain

Remain in schengen and Euro

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5 minutes ago, woodview said:

There's some on here would propose:

Remain

Remain in schengen and Euro

Eh? You have to have joined the Euro and Schengen in order to consider “remaining” it. We joined these have we? Are you being a bit deluded here?

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8 minutes ago, ez8004 said:

Eh? You have to have joined the Euro and Schengen in order to consider “remaining” it. We joined these have we? Are you being a bit deluded here?

I think you've misunderstood my post, I mean the options preffered by some, being Remain, or Remain plus joined into Schengen and the Euro.

Edited by woodview

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