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Northern Rail strikes

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Posted (edited)

I take it you have never travelled on Thameslink or the Tube or the DLR or Scotrail or C2C or Chiltern or the many other DOO rail routes in Ireland, Germany, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, USA or Canada.

 

Yeah yeah I get it.   Without a guard everyone on board will die.   You and the RMT keep telling yourselves that.  

 

Nothing more than the RMT stirring the pot.   Well publicised sources show perfectly safe operations but oh no, the RMT just dismissed it and banged on about impartiality.   Well, what about RMT's impartiality eh?      I know which expert source I would rather trust.


Rail Safety and Standards Board:

  "We have 30 years of data which we have analysed. We have found that the driver performing the task does not increase the risk to passengers at all."  
  "We have published several research projects over the last 15 years on various aspects of DOO on passenger trains. None of these pieces of work has identified any increased risk from dispatching a train without a guard being present – providing the correct procedures have been followed. In fact, the removal of any possible miscommunication, which could exist between driver and guard could, potentially, deliver some safety benefits. If we had found evidence to suggest that DOO was not safe when done correctly, we would say so."  

Office for Rail and Road:

 

Trains with doors operated by drivers (known in the industry as ‘Driver Only Operation’) have been in operation in Great Britain for more than 30 years. ORR has scrutinised this approach, and our inspectors are satisfied that with suitable equipment, proper procedures and competent staff in place, it is a safe method of working.

 

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2016/08/18/rssb-no-evidence-of-increased-risk-from-doo

http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/press-releases/2016/orrs-statement-on-driver-only-operation

Edited by ECCOnoob

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2 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

I take it you have never travelled on Thameslink or the Tube or the DLR or Scotrail or C2C or Chiltern or the many other DOO rail routes in Ireland, Germany, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, USA or Canada.

 

Yeah yeah I get it.   Without a guard everyone on board will die.   You and the RMT keep telling yourselves that.  

 

Nothing more than the RMT stirring the pot.   Well publicised sources show perfectly safe operations but oh no, the RMT just dismissed it and banged on about impartiality.   Well, what about RMT's impartiality eh?      I know which expert source I would rather trust.


Rail Safety and Standards Board:

  "We have 30 years of data which we have analysed. We have found that the driver performing the task does not increase the risk to passengers at all."  
  "We have published several research projects over the last 15 years on various aspects of DOO on passenger trains. None of these pieces of work has identified any increased risk from dispatching a train without a guard being present – providing the correct procedures have been followed. In fact, the removal of any possible miscommunication, which could exist between driver and guard could, potentially, deliver some safety benefits. If we had found evidence to suggest that DOO was not safe when done correctly, we would say so."  

Office for Rail and Road:

 

Trains with doors operated by drivers (known in the industry as ‘Driver Only Operation’) have been in operation in Great Britain for more than 30 years. ORR has scrutinised this approach, and our inspectors are satisfied that with suitable equipment, proper procedures and competent staff in place, it is a safe method of working.

 

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2016/08/18/rssb-no-evidence-of-increased-risk-from-doo

http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/press-releases/2016/orrs-statement-on-driver-only-operation

I'm sure I read somewhere that Northern and at least one other train company would still have a 2nd employee on board, they just wouldn't close the doors. If I am remembering right then the RMT's whole argument is over who presses a little green button. Which is PATHETIC. 

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1 hour ago, Resident said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that Northern and at least one other train company would still have a 2nd employee on board, they just wouldn't close the doors. If I am remembering right then the RMT's whole argument is over who presses a little green button. Which is PATHETIC. 

Yep Northern have stated this here.    https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike

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2 hours ago, Resident said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that Northern and at least one other train company would still have a 2nd employee on board, they just wouldn't close the doors. If I am remembering right then the RMT's whole argument is over who presses a little green button. Which is PATHETIC. 

If that's the case then why are Northern Rail continuing with the plan?

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35 minutes ago, andyofborg said:

If that's the case then why are Northern Rail continuing with the plan?

Why did the RMT start strikes, stating the reason was because taking the guard off the train was a risk to safety when that was not the case as the guard was still going to be there, albeit with a reduced workload? 

 

Surely blatantly lying to justify a strike makes said strike illegal? 

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You simply can't compare the highly staffed well connected and funded underground to the infastructure of the northern rail area of opperation.

Northern run trains through rural and isolated areas, which usually have unmanned stations. 

Without the back up of a guard there will be no one checking tickets, and at certain times of the week and day, absolute chaos with overloaded trains and anti social behavior. 

I don't think northern have thought it through, unless the extra person will be doing these things.

All I care about is getting my train services back, so I'm not freezing half to death on a train platform on Saturday nights.. ta

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1 hour ago, verydull said:

You simply can't compare the highly staffed well connected and funded underground to the infastructure of the northern rail area of opperation.

Northern run trains through rural and isolated areas, which usually have unmanned stations. 

Without the back up of a guard there will be no one checking tickets, and at certain times of the week and day, absolute chaos with overloaded trains and anti social behavior. 

I don't think northern have thought it through, unless the extra person will be doing these things.

All I care about is getting my train services back, so I'm not freezing half to death on a train platform on Saturday nights.. ta

The guard will still be on the train, Northern have already stated this. Presumably doing everything they do now except for closing the doors.

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The danger as I see it is this currently if there is no guard then the service is cancelled as you need 2 safety critical members of staff to run the service. By changing the role of the the guard to only checking tickets and the driver completing the dispatch procedure alone could lead to the guards role and training changing meaning they are potentially no longer safety critical and only there to check tickets and provide assistance, in this situation if the guard was to be ill for his duty then in theory they could still run the service with just the driver on board. This is where the situation is with the RMT trying to prevent this from happening by getting the guarantee that the guard will remain safety critical. For example currently a ticket inspector would not be able to do the role of a guard as they are not aware of the additional training guards receive in future this situation would occur regularly.

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6 hours ago, sheflad said:

 For example currently a ticket inspector would not be able to do the role of a guard as they are not aware of the additional training guards receive in future this situation would occur regularly.

Surely this would be better for the public as it would mean the train would not be cancelled as it would now?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, verydull said:

Without the back up of a guard there will be no one checking tickets, and at certain times of the week and day, absolute chaos with overloaded trains and anti social behavior. 

The same excuse was used for the Merseyrail strikes.

 

In reality the guard did nothing other than operate the doors (and even then one of them killed a passenger - Georgia Varley if you want to look it up).

 

They're supposed to check tickets and deal with overloaded trains and anti-social behaviour.  But in reality they don't because they don't want the hassle.  They just hide in their little room at the back of the train.

 

If there's any trouble, like smoking e-cigs or people with feet or dogs on seats they just broadcast an announcement over the tannoy.

I wonder where the guard was when this happened:

Racist abuse hurled at passengers on Merseyrail train
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/racist-abuse-hurled-passengers-merseyrail-15312184

Edited by alchresearch

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

I take it you have never travelled on Thameslink or the Tube or the DLR or Scotrail or C2C or Chiltern or the many other DOO rail routes in Ireland, Germany, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, USA or Canada.

 

Yeah yeah I get it.   Without a guard everyone on board will die.   You and the RMT keep telling yourselves that.  

 

 

Actually I have used DOO routes around the country over the years. In fact as part of my job I have to deal with the faulting and maintenance of the DOO equipment installed on all the stations that have DOO operation.

 

But..... Ok...... Let's look at your examples in the UK.....

 

Thameslink - Only DOO on their suburban network.

LUL - All stations are manned at all times.

DLR - Not even a heavy rail network.

Scotrail - No DOO operation anywhere on their network.

Chiltern - Only DOO south of Banbury (i.e. their suburban network)

C2C (Now Southern) - Only DOO on their suburban network.

 

So, apart from Scotrail which actually doesn't have any DOO operation and DLR that isn't a heavy rail network, can you see a common link with the routes that do have DOO in use?????

 

The fact that all the routes using DOO are in suburban areas with plenty of manned stations  is in total conflict with the network we have up here in the North of England. In fact yes there are a few more routes which are already DOO and have been for a few years now but they are all on suburban networks with numerous stations which are manned. As I also mentioned earlier part of my job involves the DOO equipment installed at the stations that do use DOO..... You've not mentioned this so I'm assuming you didn't know of the extra equipment installed at DOO stations around the country which Northern have made no mention of installing at all their stations. If you've ever used trains on DOO routes yourself you will obviously seen this equipment along each of the platforms so as to aid the drivers when operating the doors along the trains.

 

The difference is that the Northern franchise network is NOT like this in any way shape or form. Which if you looked into it a little more you would have found out. Once you have worked in the rail industry for around 30 years (I have never been involved with Northern or working on the trains themselves before you say anything like that) you would also understand a little something about the safety aspects involved when working on the railway which again you obviously have no idea about, (And why would you when you don't work in the industry?)

 

I agree that DOO has it's place but just not on a network as rural and with so few manned stations as the Northern franchise.

Edited by WaveyDavey

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2 hours ago, WaveyDavey said:

Actually I have used DOO routes around the country over the years. In fact as part of my job I have to deal with the faulting and maintenance of the DOO equipment installed on all the stations that have DOO operation.

 

But..... Ok...... Let's look at your examples in the UK.....

 

Thameslink - Only DOO on their suburban network.

LUL - All stations are manned at all times.

DLR - Not even a heavy rail network.

Scotrail - No DOO operation anywhere on their network.

Chiltern - Only DOO south of Banbury (i.e. their suburban network)

C2C (Now Southern) - Only DOO on their suburban network.

 

So, apart from Scotrail which actually doesn't have any DOO operation and DLR that isn't a heavy rail network, can you see a common link with the routes that do have DOO in use?????

 

The fact that all the routes using DOO are in suburban areas with plenty of manned stations  is in total conflict with the network we have up here in the North of England. In fact yes there are a few more routes which are already DOO and have been for a few years now but they are all on suburban networks with numerous stations which are manned. As I also mentioned earlier part of my job involves the DOO equipment installed at the stations that do use DOO..... You've not mentioned this so I'm assuming you didn't know of the extra equipment installed at DOO stations around the country which Northern have made no mention of installing at all their stations. If you've ever used trains on DOO routes yourself you will obviously seen this equipment along each of the platforms so as to aid the drivers when operating the doors along the trains.

 

The difference is that the Northern franchise network is NOT like this in any way shape or form. Which if you looked into it a little more you would have found out. Once you have worked in the rail industry for around 30 years (I have never been involved with Northern or working on the trains themselves before you say anything like that) you would also understand a little something about the safety aspects involved when working on the railway which again you obviously have no idea about, (And why would you when you don't work in the industry?)

 

I agree that DOO has it's place but just not on a network as rural and with so few manned stations as the Northern franchise.

Ah right.  So the Rail Standards Board and Office for Rail and Road are completely wrong then? 

 

The Secretary of State is implementing these contractual terms on operators just for a giggle then?  

 

Maybe they should have listened to you eh?   You clearly know better.  

 

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