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Congestion charge in Sheffield

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1 hour ago, Planner1 said:

In the CAZ, the charges will be collected by the government, not SCC.

The government collect the charges, take out their operational costs and then return the proportion of charges that are local back to SCC.

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2 hours ago, geared said:

 

Yet information on the council website here it says differently??

Yep, you're correct, I hadn't picked that up.

2 hours ago, apelike said:

The government collect the charges, take out their operational costs and then return the proportion of charges that are local back to SCC.

Yep, I'd mentioned that earlier in the thread.

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12 hours ago, Planner1 said:

 

I've been told exactly the same.  There have been meetings going on between Department for Transport and taxi trade associations / unions etc.

 

I'd share your doubts about how well it might work.

Good, at least now we're on the same page, as the phrase goes.

12 hours ago, Planner1 said:

 

If ordinary cars remain exempt from CAZ proposals, the cabs that are not on the database would simply not be detected. If I'm thinking correctly, they are registered on DVLA as PLG, same as any ordinary car, so there would be no problem with lots of incorrect fines being issued.

Although the Council does have a lot of vehicles, I'd think that maybe some of them (like the minibuses etc) don't actually need to come into the city centre that much , so it might not be as big a problem as you'd think.

 

And here, the main point I was making earlier on, they AREN'T 'entering the city' if they use the ring road for it's purpose which was designed for - which was to get traffic out of the centre. If hypothetically I agreed with CAZ, then it would only be city centre only, not the ring road.

 

Will these non-exempt (i.e. polluting vehicles) just use side streets instead? (same with one off taxi journeys?)

 

If -for example - my choice to get from Ecclesall Road to Bramall Lane now involved a £40 bus charge, do you not think the logical thing for SCC bus driver to do is use Pear Street, Napier Street, Boston St, London Road, Hill Street (or John Street) to Bramall Lane?

 

If I'm not working, but still being logged by these cameras, then do you think I will take the efficient route and pay £12.50, or pollute some suburbs instead?

 

Sorry suburban people, I'm bringing my diesel nastiness to your street!! 🤣

 

 

12 hours ago, Planner1 said:

The newer vehicles will be exempt as they will meet the emissions requirements so all it will mean is that vehicle renewal is speeded up. It will be the same for many fleet operators.

 

I could see their might possibly be an ask to exempt essential maintenance vehicles etc (like gritters), at least in the shorter term, till fleets get renewed. But, I've not seen anything about how that might work or indeed if it is a possibility.

Of course, I'd exempt gritters!

 

blimey, have you seen sheffield drivers in snow?

12 hours ago, Planner1 said:

You mean the electric cabs?

 

Do you know what the operational range will be on a charge?

 

It is feasible to convert a diesel cab to meet the CAZ requirements but it's a petrol engine transplant and conversion to LPG. Not cheap I imagine.

Well it has 1.5 petrol turbo in it, to help. Without it, no chance in Sheffield with hills.

 

You talk to anyone with a 100% electric car in here, and they can hardly get to the shops and back, if there is so much of a frozen turkey in the boot.

 

Have you been in one them yet? Really nice. I was quite surprised.

10 hours ago, geared said:

Forgive me if I'm stupidly late to pick up on whats being discussed, but essentially what you're saying is that with the proposed congestion charging plans, SCC has no way of identifying (and charging) taxi's licenced in other towns.

 

So there is a gaping hole in their plans to charge these vehicles??

well, it's more government idea I think (but labour in sheffield certainly not opposing it!!) but to answer bold, simple answer yes.

 

They wo't be able to charge OOTs due to this, and if it goes ahead, I would suspect most drivers (including me) will just go and get licensed somewhere else.

9 hours ago, apelike said:

The government collect the charges, take out their operational costs and then return the proportion of charges that are local back to SCC.

 

sorry forgot to answer apelike, will post to auto-merge...

 

to which I was going to just put - 'which will be nothing'

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They will be able to identify and charge OOT taxis if the government compiles a national database as they've proposed.

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12 hours ago, *_ash_* said:

Well it has 1.5 petrol turbo in it, to help. Without it, no chance in Sheffield with hills.

 

You talk to anyone with a 100% electric car in here, and they can hardly get to the shops and back, if there is so much of a frozen turkey in the boot.

 

Have you been in one them yet? Really nice. I was quite surprised.

I haven't been in a hybrid cab.

 

The Council are introducing a fleet of 10 electric cabs in the spring for drivers to try out. They will also be introducing a dozen rapid chargers to ensure they can keep running and not lose much time charging.

 

The technology is improving all the time, but it remains to be seen whether EV's are currently a practical option as a cab, hence the trial.

12 hours ago, *_ash_* said:

well, it's more government idea I think (but labour in sheffield certainly not opposing it!!) 

That's because they can't really oppose it.

 

The government has introduced regulation that means that any fines levied on them by the courts for breaches of air quality standards can be passed straight to the Local Authorities where the breaches occur. The courts have already ordered the government to act as quickly as possible to rectify the air quality issues following actions brought by environmental activists. The fines will be huge (££millions) and the Council can't risk having to pay them. They are also committed to improving the health of their constituents, having a biter environment  and making Sheffield a better place to live, so measures to improve air quality fit with their agenda.

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We do need to take responsibility for the quality of our air and we need to reduce car usage throughout the country

 

So perhaps congestion charging is the only way?

 

I for one would welcome less congested roads to drive on, so if that means driving poorer people off the roads I have no objection.

 

Be nice to drive on more clear roads

I have I make it clear my concerns are totally about the environment

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4 hours ago, Planner1 said:

The government has introduced regulation that means that any fines levied on them by the courts for breaches of air quality standards can be passed straight to the Local Authorities where the breaches occur. 

Can you say what act or regulation this is under as its hard to find details that the fines will be passed down only that the government has the potential to do so.

Edited by apelike

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1 minute ago, apelike said:

Can you say what act or regulation this is under as its hard to find details that the fines will be passed down.

If there isn't an act already in place.... they will make one.😉

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1 hour ago, apelike said:

Can you say what act or regulation this is under as its hard to find details that the fines will be passed down only that the government has the potential to do so.

I'm advised there's a discretionary power in Part 2 of the Localism Act which means the Government can require responsible authorities to pay all or part of any fine levied on the government.

 

The Government pointed this out to Local Authorities where air quality is identified as being in breach of standards, see: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/air-pollution-infraction-fines so it would appear they  mean to do so.

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I am given to wonder at just who it is that wishes to introduce this idea of congestion charges in Sheffield to add to the decline  of the city centre.... and what is the reasoning behind their long term objective  whatever that might be.

 

There is so little in the centre these days that can not be obtained from outlets not based there.   The albeit very small and much reduced market (compared to the sheaf and castle markets in their hay day) is about it.  You can get a coffee anywhere (or for the novelty value of it ...at home)  you can shove a pie in the oven rather than get it from greggs.    Cut price christmas shops..  oops must not mention christmas where the council can hear you..  though of course there is waht what might be the city's most concentrated area of charity shops and hairdressers.

 

Sheffield city centre compared to cities with similar sized poplations is probably the smallest and most run down of the lot.  Some towns have larger shopping areas.   and really how much affordable entertainment is there in sheffield centre that people  WANT to avail themselves of.  over proiced food outlets, cinemas and coffe shops.    wow....   big deal.

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2 hours ago, Planner1 said:

I'm advised there's a discretionary power in Part 2 of the Localism Act which means the Government can require responsible authorities to pay all or part of any fine levied on the government.

 

The Government pointed this out to Local Authorities where air quality is identified as being in breach of standards, see: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/air-pollution-infraction-fines so it would appear they  mean to do so.

It does not appear to be so clear cut though especially as the EU sanction can take many years to decide upon and we may not carry on as a partner or stay in the EU. Stating the government means to pass down fines is a bit OTT and I think a bit of scaremongering to justify charges. There also seem to be a very involved process/route to go down as chapter 4 of this points out and its decisions can also be subject to judicial review.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/6070/2180375.pdf

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10 hours ago, Planner1 said:

I haven't been in a hybrid cab.

 

The Council are introducing a fleet of 10 electric cabs in the spring for drivers to try out. They will also be introducing a dozen rapid chargers to ensure they can keep running and not lose much time charging.

 

The technology is improving all the time, but it remains to be seen whether EV's are currently a practical option as a cab, hence the trial.

That's because they can't really oppose it.

It's a bit late now though, as the cabs have been designed and built!

 

If they came in at a better price, I think they would sell, but with current climate, and so much uncertainly since the dereg, I think they'll go bust.

 

10 hours ago, Planner1 said:

 

 

9 hours ago, rogets said:

We do need to take responsibility for the quality of our air and we need to reduce car usage throughout the country

 

So perhaps congestion charging is the only way?

 

I for one would welcome less congested roads to drive on, so if that means driving poorer people off the roads I have no objection.

 

Be nice to drive on more clear roads

I have I make it clear my concerns are totally about the environment

I don't think it's made London much less busy. Certainly made a few quid though. We're all going to be next.

 

Once the cameras are in, things will change in small increments, but the end result is everyone will end up paying for it, with little environmental difference... IMO

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