Congestion charge in Sheffield

[geared 302]

26 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

want the most polluting vehicles to go around it via a route which isn't as close to the city centre, maybe the Outer Ring Road.

 

 

Which isn't actually a ring and probably partly why we have issues.  Obviously it's not something we can fix either.

[ads36 214]

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What about the obvious one of putting yet another tax on petrol/diesel?

you do realise that SCC can't do that, right?

 

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We have known??  As in the public??  I think you'll find the majority of the public thought Diesel was good right up until the VW scandal broke.

The government was certainly pushing Diesel cars on the public and in return they were lapping them up.

 

Unless you have a special interest in the subject it's unlikely you will have know about the specific diesel pollution issues till very recently.

the dangers of diesel particulates has been very much in the public domain, for at least as long as i've been driving (more than 20 years). it's not my fault if people ignore serious issues.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by ads36

[*_ash_* 88]

11 hours ago, Planner1 said:

I'm not sure how it would work. They could require drivers to register, like with the London congestion charge.

 

There isn't any national database of licensed hackney cabs.

A national database weekly updated would be a complete nightmare, and probably cost into hundreds of millions. I can't see this or the last government handling this well. Neither have a good record with national databases.

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Not sure what you mean by: "They can't distinguish currently ones driving through bus lane/gate cameras"

 

If you mean out of town licensed hackney's / PHV's, they don't have to identify them, because they are exempt same as Sheffield licensed ones. They can only exempt a class of vehicle ie Bus, Cycle,  Hackney and /or PHV, so any Hackney or PHV is exempt in any bus lanes which allow them, anywhere in UK.

I'd imagine they would if they are working in Sheffield.

 

see point above: The camera sees my registration, immediately sees that it is a registered Sheffield taxi, so I don't receive a fine (in theory of course! --  you'll know that with what happened last year when someone forgot to update it one week! 🤣)

 

Out of town taxis are not on a database, hence have to be issued with a fine, which will be rescinded. (at a cost to SCC)

 

That was my point, if there is no national database then this cannot possibly be picked up on, unless they fine the 100,000 or so people that use the ring road every day, and wait for the replies!

10 hours ago, Planner1 said:

Not sure what you mean.

 

The £40m is a request to government for funding that most of the big cities have made. I haven't seen cost breakdowns, but I'd think it includes a significant amount to cover support for vehicle upgrades.

 

If the government do not approve and fund the proposals the major cities are currently putting forward, the cities are going to have to look at another way of addressing the issue. That could involve charging cars.

 

I've seen no evidence that taxis will get any 'support'. Bus companies are mentioned.

 

As it happens though, I just can't see this happening. I certainly hope it doesn't, but I just think it will make no difference at all, the the cities pollution problems.

 

I imagine many will be in favour of it, because it gets us nasty old taxis, but do think hard... this is just a step in the direction of what would probably end up being a 'congestion charge', - one with the aim of being categorised as a 'green' and 'clean air' tax. The worrying thing is that neither Labour, nor Tories can say they are against anything that sounds 'green', so both will push for it.

 

We are told by the council what vehicles we can use, and are tested twice a year too, so buy what meets all the requirements. People like me will be stuck with a 3 year old worthless car. Can't sell it or lose huge money, or spend huge amounts on 'caean air' taxes that mean I have to work more hours in the city. It's just nonsense.

10 hours ago, Planner1 said:

The proposal is for the Inner Ring Road, which is immediately around the city centre.

 

Clearly they are looking to address city centre air quality and want the most polluting vehicles to go around it via a route which isn't as close to the city centre, maybe the Outer Ring Road.

I'd guess it might, but that would need to be clarified by Government.

I just cannot think of the words to answer this bold... it's laugh out loud material

 

🤣😂🤣😂

10 hours ago, geared said:

and you jack up the price of diesel then everyone pays when the cost of goods delivery is just passed onto the consumer.

 

In turn it does nothing for pollution as the old vehicles are still on the road and still kicking out exhaust fumes.

You're wasting your breath with logic.

 

The truth is this:

 

Cllr Scott said, 'we won't increase hackney carriages fees to compensate this otherwise it defeats the object',

 

so hackneys are finished then. Even the one's with station licenses only take £9 hour on average. £65,000 for one that is in line with new rules, when the last ones were £35,000.

 

Any mathematicians about?

 

He also said bus companies couldn't do the same, but I won't quote that, as I can't be bothered to look through 3 hours of the meeting again

 

PHVs will put prices up. Buses will put prices up. Coaches* same

 

*coaches that do pick ups and drops offs say, Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby, Birmingham, London... all major cities, all £50 to go in... where is this cost going? Say goodbye to megabus for a start. I wonder how many of the leftie greenies at uni think about this? They'll just say, well that's Torys... Labour get in, and they aren't going to remove 10 cities and £say 25million in each, so the cameras stay.

 

Delivery vans same geared... you think Amazon, and all their delivery vehicles will absorb this tax? not a chance. (though the deliverers will probably lose most)

 

Electricity and utility vehicles (often subcontracted out) will they be exempt? If yes, why? if no, then that's everyone's electricity and gas and water bills up.

 

Thankfully many people with head in clouds, will just blame it on brexit, and this will just slowly seep its way into society. Talk about sheep.

 

-

 

Also question for anyone... (though in particular planner1) as I don't know the answer to this - genuinely

 

No one asked at the meeting, and I was hoping someone would.

 

Will the SCC minibuses, delivery vehicles, and various vans, trucks be exempt? Some of those minibuses are like mini-incinerators with all the crap they spew out,

 

also, and all the vehicles subcontracted to the council, like AMEY vans trucks etc.? Will they be exempt? If not, this will increase public spending (i.e. council tax)

 

 

10 hours ago, ads36 said:

you do realise that SCC can't do that, right?

 

 

 

 

The SCC can't implement this either. The government is proposing, so they could equally propose a higher fuel tax ' and call it 'clean air tax'

 

Of course they won't, because it would be political suicide. Both parties know it.

 

This way, an income stream comes in, that affects bus companies, delivery companies, taxi drivers, etc., which in turn is passed on to the consumer.

 

How people can't see such an 'sly' obvious tax if just beyond me.

 

The only thing that has surprised me so far is the 500 people that I seem to be killing each year, aren't children. Starving children too.

Edited November 29, 2018 by *_ash_*

[Planner1 428]

2 hours ago, *_ash_* said:

 

Also question for anyone... (though in particular planner1) as I don't know the answer to this - genuinely

 

No one asked at the meeting, and I was hoping someone would.

 

Will the SCC minibuses, delivery vehicles, and various vans, trucks be exempt? Some of those minibuses are like mini-incinerators with all the crap they spew out,

 

also, and all the vehicles subcontracted to the council, like AMEY vans trucks etc.? Will they be exempt? If not, this will increase public spending (i.e. council tax)

I can’t see how Council vehicles or their contractors vehicles would be exempt. I’ve certainly not seen anything to suggest they would be.

 

 I’ve seen plenty of taxis laying smoke like a destroyer, so it’s a bit rich pointing the finger at others.

 

You’re right that this will be an additional cost to businesses etc and therefore it’s likely that they will pass it on to the consumer / customer if they can. The government are being forced to act by the courts, I don’t think it’s something that the politicians really want to do because  it will probably be a vote loser ( although there are a good number of people who want cleaner air, who will be happy with the proposals) and they all want to be re-elected.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Planner1

[Cyclone 10]

20 hours ago, Planner1 said:

 

If you mean out of town licensed hackney's / PHV's, they don't have to identify them, because they are exempt same as Sheffield licensed ones. They can only exempt a class of vehicle ie Bus, Cycle,  Hackney and /or PHV, so any Hackney or PHV is exempt in any bus lanes which allow them, anywhere in UK.

I'd imagine they would if they are working in Sheffield.

 

Surely they DO have to determine that it's a PHV though, which they can't just do from the VRN, so how do they do it?  Or do they fine first and then waive it when the objection is that the vehicle is exempt.

20 hours ago, Mr Bloke said:

Problem with that of course, is that the government would be collecting the taxes and not local councils... 

Since the directive is from central government I can't see why the suspicious face.

The obvious problem though is that a tax on petrol costs votes, and the current government wouldn't win a GE if we called one now, so they won't implement vote losing policies.

[*_ash_* 88]

10 hours ago, Planner1 said:

I can’t see how Council vehicles or their contractors vehicles would be exempt. I’ve certainly not seen anything to suggest they would be.

Well this certainly will be interesting. If they aren't exempt, that will cause a lot of services to be cancelled, there's surely no way the council will be able to pay for this. Perhaps that's why the Labour councillors aren't opposing it, because it will be curtains for the government if this happens.

10 hours ago, Planner1 said:

 

 I’ve seen plenty of taxis laying smoke like a destroyer, so it’s a bit rich pointing the finger at others.

I'm not pointing fingers at others to detract from taxis, I think it's a perfectly good point! The council must have at least a thousand vehicles that fall into the criteria. If they all being charged £40-£50 every time they enter the ring road, then it's going to divert a lot of Sheffield CTax to central government. If they are exempt for any reason, then I'd be interested to see the reason.

 

As for taxis spewing out fumes, of course I see them, but they won't be there for long as any visible smoke in future SCC MoT garage will fail. Most of the guys I chat to say they will opt for PHV when their cabs die.

10 hours ago, Planner1 said:

 

You’re right that this will be an additional cost to businesses etc and therefore it’s likely that they will pass it on to the consumer / customer if they can. The government are being forced to act by the courts, I don’t think it’s something that the politicians really want to do because  it will probably be a vote loser ( although there are a good number of people who want cleaner air, who will be happy with the proposals) and they all want to be re-elected.

Everyone wants cleaner air so the whole thing (for me anyway) is about how to go about it, and this is plain rubbish IMO.

The questionnaire that we saw at the meeting said 84% of drivers want to see cleaner air, and this was indirectly said to be evidence that taxis were in favour of it - it certainly sounded that way... but the question itself is loaded. (by the way, even amongst the 2k odd drivers on the taxi forum, no one had said they even saw the questionnaire! I didn't.

2 hours ago, Cyclone said:

Surely they DO have to determine that it's a PHV though, which they can't just do from the VRN, so how do they do it?  Or do they fine first and then waive it when the objection is that the vehicle is exempt.

 

 

Precisely.

The GMB told me yesterday that a national database IS being set up by government, but I can't see that happening. There are hundreds of councils across the country, and hundreds of thousands of taxis... even SCC database can't keep it up to date even doing it weekly*, so what chance has a national government database?!

 

*to be fair, that's an exaggeration, they do keep on top of it, but as we saw last year, when they don't do it weekly, it ends up with thousands of incorrect fines being sent out. I think they said several thousand went out, I got 6 myself in a week. That's gonna be costly if they accidentally send out 100k to everyone on the ring road in a week.

 

 

 

 

Just to add also, on topic, but info as people may not know, how many new cabs have been sold in Sheffield so far?

 

Anyone?

 

The answer is easy btw!

 

(I have been in one of the 2 SCC hire vehicles, and I must say, it's absolutely brilliant. Really good vehicles. However at £65k, I expect sales to not even make double figures. In fact I can't even see 1 being bought.

[Planner1 428]

3 hours ago, Cyclone said:

Surely they DO have to determine that it's a PHV though, which they can't just do from the VRN, so how do they do it?  Or do they fine first and then waive it when the objection is that the vehicle is exempt.

Currently SCC can only identify PHV's licensed in Sheffield. Out of city licensed ones receive a PCN when they are picked up using an enforced bus lane. They get a penalty which is cancelled if they provide proof they are a licensed PHV. Their details are then put on the exemption list (for the duration of their license). 

24 minutes ago, *_ash_* said:

The GMB told me yesterday that a national database IS being set up by government, but I can't see that happening. There are hundreds of councils across the country, and hundreds of thousands of taxis... even SCC database can't keep it up to date even doing it weekly*, so what chance has a national government database?!

 

*to be fair, that's an exaggeration, they do keep on top of it, but as we saw last year, when they don't do it weekly, it ends up with thousands of incorrect fines being sent out. I think they said several thousand went out, I got 6 myself in a week. That's gonna be costly if they accidentally send out 100k to everyone on the ring road in a week.

I've been told exactly the same.  There have been meetings going on between Department for Transport and taxi trade associations / unions etc.

 

I'd share your doubts about how well it might work.

 

If ordinary cars remain exempt from CAZ proposals, the cabs that are not on the database would simply not be detected. If I'm thinking correctly, they are registered on DVLA as PLG, same as any ordinary car, so there would be no problem with lots of incorrect fines being issued.

32 minutes ago, *_ash_* said:

Well this certainly will be interesting. If they aren't exempt, that will cause a lot of services to be cancelled, there's surely no way the council will be able to pay for this. Perhaps that's why the Labour councillors aren't opposing it, because it will be curtains for the government if this happens.

Although the Council does have a lot of vehicles, I'd think that maybe some of them (like the minibuses etc) don't actually need to come into the city centre that much , so it might not be as big a problem as you'd think.

 

The newer vehicles will be exempt as they will meet the emissions requirements so all it will mean is that vehicle renewal is speeded up. It will be the same for many fleet operators.

 

I could see their might possibly be an ask to exempt essential maintenance vehicles etc (like gritters), at least in the shorter term, till fleets get renewed. But, I've not seen anything about how that might work or indeed if it is a possibility.

44 minutes ago, *_ash_* said:

Just to add also, on topic, but info as people may not know, how many new cabs have been sold in Sheffield so far?

 

Anyone?

 

The answer is easy btw!

 

(I have been in one of the 2 SCC hire vehicles, and I must say, it's absolutely brilliant. Really good vehicles. However at £65k, I expect sales to not even make double figures. In fact I can't even see 1 being bought.

You mean the electric cabs?

 

Do you know what the operational range will be on a charge?

 

It is feasible to convert a diesel cab to meet the CAZ requirements but it's a petrol engine transplant and conversion to LPG. Not cheap I imagine.

[geared 302]

1 hour ago, Planner1 said:

Currently SCC can only identify PHV's licensed in Sheffield. Out of city licensed ones receive a PCN when they are picked up using an enforced bus lane. They get a penalty which is cancelled if they provide proof they are a licensed PHV. Their details are then put on the exemption list (for the duration of their license). 

Forgive me if I'm stupidly late to pick up on whats being discussed, but essentially what you're saying is that with the proposed congestion charging plans, SCC has no way of identifying (and charging) taxi's licenced in other towns.

 

So there is a gaping hole in their plans to charge these vehicles??

[bassett one 449]

sounds like another silly plan by SCC,they need a re-think before charging ahead in my opinion

[Planner1 428]

31 minutes ago, geared said:

Forgive me if I'm stupidly late to pick up on whats being discussed, but essentially what you're saying is that with the proposed congestion charging plans, SCC has no way of identifying (and charging) taxi's licenced in other towns.

 

So there is a gaping hole in their plans to charge these vehicles??

You should read the conversation fully.

 

There's a difference between hackney cabs (taxis) and private hire vehicles (PHV's).

 

In the proposed clean air zone (it's not a congestion charge) PHV's are exempt as they are the same as a private car, only taxis (hackney cabs) are subject to the charge if they do not comply with the emissions requirements.

 

In the CAZ, the charges will be collected by the government, not SCC.

 

The government are proposing to assemble a database of all licensed taxis from every licensing authority, which they will make available to Local Authorities who have a CAZ, so they can include all licensed taxis in their exemption list.

 

As things stand, with the type of enforcement SCC currently carry out (ie bus lanes / gates) by camera, SCC do not have a full database of all licensed taxis in the country, they only have ones which are licensed in Sheffield. Those from outside receive a penalty when they use the bus facilities and then provide proof of license, so the penalty is cancelled. SCC then put them on the exemption list. Not ideal but its the only way it can currently be done.

25 minutes ago, bassett one said:

sounds like another silly plan by SCC,they need a re-think before charging ahead in my opinion

All major cities who have been mandated by the government to introduce CAZ's are proposing pretty much the same measures, because that's how the government is telling them they must approach it.

 

SCC are just doing what the government requires them to do.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Planner1

[geared 302]

1 hour ago, Planner1 said:

You should read the conversation fully.

 

There's a difference between hackney cabs (taxis) and private hire vehicles (PHV's).

 

In the proposed clean air zone (it's not a congestion charge) PHV's are exempt as they are the same as a private car, only taxis (hackney cabs) are subject to the charge if they do not comply with the emissions requirements.

 

Yet information on the council website here it says differently??

 

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Taxis and Private Hire Vehicles Proposed Charge £10 a day

That was the link in the original post, have the proposals been updated since and put online somewhere else?

I mean it's dated 13th November so the information isn't that old?

Edited November 30, 2018 by geared

[Mr Bloke 1,445]

1 hour ago, Planner1 said:

All major cities who have been mandated by the government to introduce CAZ's are proposing pretty much the same measures, because that's how the government is telling them they must approach it.

 

SCC are just doing what the government requires them to do.

Hmmm...

... interesting then that this is only being proposed in big cities.

 

And as we all know, the majority of big cities are in the North and Midlands...