Knife attacks in Sheffield 2018

[grandad owl 10]

There's a lot of truth in that.

 

Not only the jobs but the communities have gone too.

 

When young lads like these worked down the mines or in the steelworks or factories they worked with, and were supervised by big strong men who demanded respect and got it. They kept them in line and showed them how to go on, what was acceptable behaviour and what wasn't in no uncertain terms etc. They usually had a sense of humour, common sense and were down to earth making them good male role models and mentors.

 

Alas, all this disappeared along with the jobs.

spot on, well said and so correct

[tinfoilhat 11]

Don't you think that "not wanting to work" is symptomatic of wider problems surrounding a complete lack of connection with their environment, and a complete failure to see any hope or opportunity in the future?

 

Let's be honest - you don't get to the point of stabbing someone else without being absolutely at the end of the line in terms of caring about not just others, but also the consequences to yourself.

 

Are you though? Are we absolutely sure they're stabbing each other because of their lack of employment prospects? Are you saying they just need a job - a really good job by the way that's fulfilling and with excellent career advancement because working in a warehouse or a shop just isn't good enough - and they'll become less stabby and see the lives of their peers as worth something?

 

Sorry, that's cobblers.

 

 

That's been allowed to happen by funding cuts to things that aimed to change these feelings, and by successive government policies designed to favour the very rich in society at the expense of the very poor.

 

NO ONE is defending or trying to justify these actions at all: they're shameful and I think we all hope justice is metered out and that punishments are severe. But we also have to look at the wider picture, unless we want things to endlessly repeat, and ask exactly why many teenagers feel so disengaged that they are willing to kill someone else.

 

(In terms of the 'jobs for young EU workers' discussion it's quite different. Many of these young workers come for a few years to save money which they can then take back to their poorer economy and live more comfortably on in the future. For the sake of that they're willing to do hard menial jobs that have no future or progression to them, with a longer term goal ahead of them. When you don't have that aim of escaping to a better live dangled in front of you it's not hard to see why people are utterly depressed at the prospect of some of that work.)

 

Again, I know it's a useful narrative for many arguments that the foreigners come over here and send/take the money home but it's far more nuanced than that. And surely it's easier to hire a Brit and explain the job once rather than take on a succession of foreigners and teach them several times, potentially a different language each time.

 

That said, amongst the cuts, the further education sector has got hammered again. We are creating a society that's divided into graduates and kids labelled no-hopers, even when they're not. It's been going on for years and isn't changing soon.

[Guest makapaka]

Are you though? Are we absolutely sure they're stabbing each other because of their lack of employment prospects? Are you saying they just need a job - a really good job by the way that's fulfilling and with excellent career advancement because working in a warehouse or a shop just isn't good enough - and they'll become less stabby and see the lives of their peers as worth something?

 

Sorry, that's cobblers.

 

 

 

Again, I know it's a useful narrative for many arguments that the foreigners come over here and send/take the money home but it's far more nuanced than that. And surely it's easier to hire a Brit and explain the job once rather than take on a succession of foreigners and teach them several times, potentially a different language each time.

 

That said, amongst the cuts, the further education sector has got hammered again. We are creating a society that's divided into graduates and kids labelled no-hopers, even when they're not. It's been going on for years and isn't changing soon.

 

You say something is cobblers - and then reinforce the point you arguing in your last paragraph.

 

If you come out of education without any qualifications you don’t have much opportunity to get on in a long term, worthwhile job with likeminded peers and role models.

 

If you feel like a “no-hoper” it’s not going to make you automatically want to stab someone - but it might lead you down a path where you end up doing so. That’s not to excuse the action in anyway.

[paula4sheff 10]

Are you though? Are we absolutely sure they're stabbing each other because of their lack of employment prospects? Are you saying they just need a job - a really good job by the way that's fulfilling and with excellent career advancement because working in a warehouse or a shop just isn't good enough - and they'll become less stabby and see the lives of their peers as worth something?

 

Sorry, that's cobblers.

 

 

 

Again, I know it's a useful narrative for many arguments that the foreigners come over here and send/take the money home but it's far more nuanced than that. And surely it's easier to hire a Brit and explain the job once rather than take on a succession of foreigners and teach them several times, potentially a different language each time.

 

That said, amongst the cuts, the further education sector has got hammered again. We are creating a society that's divided into graduates and kids labelled no-hopers, even when they're not. It's been going on for years and isn't changing soon.

 

Your last points is exactly it....but apply that to mental heath, to youth work, work with young offenders etc etc and the picture builds up.

[tinfoilhat 11]

You say something is cobblers - and then reinforce the point you arguing in your last paragraph.

 

If you come out of education without any qualifications you don’t have much opportunity to get on in a long term, worthwhile job with likeminded peers and role models.

 

If you feel like a “no-hoper” it’s not going to make you automatically want to stab someone - but it might lead you down a path where you end up doing so. That’s not to excuse the action in anyway.

 

But it's been that case for years - I was more or less told the same 25 odd years ago - "you need to get 5 GCSEs or you'll end up down the road at the tech" - like it was a threat. Maybe I'm a bit more yozza Hughes than the current generation but I'd have taken pretty much anything, and I did, we did. Some had training some went to college, some took what they could, all under the backdrop of pit closures left right and centre.

 

Here's the rub. Some really loved a punch up on a Friday night (on or two I recall had the better jobs too). It never got stabby though, that's the big difference I can see. If anything, I see less groups of kids hanging about on street corners than I did as a kid. Are they all in the bedrooms on whatsapp?

[Halibut 12]

Glasgow have reduced their violent crime massively in recent years - ''Between 2006 and 2011, 15 children and teenagers were killed with knives in Scotland’s largest city; between April 2011 and April 2016, none were.''

 

Maybe we should look at what they did - and start doing it here?

Further information here - https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2017/dec/03/how-scotland-reduced-knife-deaths-among-young-people

[Cyclone 10]

Yes, outdoor play has dropped massively, not due to tech necessarily, but mostly due to parents (and inappropriate paranoia?).

But we're not talking about the same ages of 'kids' that are stabbing each other, the stabby ones are all adults aren't they, the ones in the news recently have been.

 

I'd say that it is highly likely that the people doing the stabbing aren't under graduates, they're almost certainly under educated in fact. But is that correlation or causation. They've probably done badly at school for some underlying reason and that reason is what contributes towards an increased risk of being engaged in crime. Poor school qualifications might be indicative, but I don't think it's the cause.

 

---------- Post added 25-09-2018 at 07:40 ----------

 

Enough is enough, the people that are arrested must be given the maximum sentences and show that the system is going to finally get it's act together. Maybe when some of the idiots that carry these weapons see that they will be going to prison for a long time they will hopefully think before going out armed with knives.

 

Highly unlikely that harsh sentencing will work as a deterrent. Study after study shows that it doesn't work. Criminals are convinced that they won't get caught, and no amount of media or statistics will convince them otherwise, they're either not that bright, or they're bright enough to think they can get around it!

[Top Cats Hat 10]

Enough is enough, the people that are arrested must be given the maximum sentences

 

That's probably a bit harsh on the 6 of the 7 released without charge!

[Eccy Beach 11]

Glasgow have reduced their violent crime massively in recent years - ''Between 2006 and 2011, 15 children and teenagers were killed with knives in Scotland’s largest city; between April 2011 and April 2016, none were.''

 

Maybe we should look at what they did - and start doing it here?

Further information here - https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2017/dec/03/how-scotland-reduced-knife-deaths-among-young-people

 

An evidence-based approach on Sheffield Forum! It'll never work. Better to rant about tougher sentences even though the Glasgow approach (although they got it from USA) is rooted in a public health methodology, rather than law enforcement.

[Guest makapaka]

An evidence-based approach on Sheffield Forum! It'll never work. Better to rant about tougher sentences even though the Glasgow approach (although they got it from USA) is rooted in a public health methodology, rather than law enforcement.

 

Except law enforcement was a key part of it;

“They campaigned really hard to get the legislation around knife crime changed so people would be more likely to get a mandatory sentence. There was also, at the outset, a lot of stop and search.”

[Eccy Beach 11]

Except law enforcement was a key part of it;

“They campaigned really hard to get the legislation around knife crime changed so people would be more likely to get a mandatory sentence. There was also, at the outset, a lot of stop and search.”

 

I'm pretty sure the evaluation of it, and certainly how it is being sold to London as the solution is more to do with the public health approach and changing societal views on knife crime and carrying knives.

[Guest makapaka]

I'm pretty sure the evaluation of it, and certainly how it is being sold to London as the solution is more to do with the public health approach and changing societal views on knife crime and carrying knives.

 

Possibly - but your previous post seemed to try and cast shade on people’s opinilns on tougher sentencing but the article does appear to support that to an extent.