Tram expansion in Sheffield

[ads36 214]

No public transport system in the world can cope with individual journey requirements from one suburb to a border industrial area.

 

 

How about we try 'from the city centre to the main/flagship high-value manufacturing area*'

 

?

 

(*Which just happens to have a residential population of around 15thousand people)

[geared 303]

You need a big site for a strategic park and ride site. 1000 spaces or so. The problem would be, how do you get a fast and frequent link bus service to where people want to go? Parkway is congested at peak times, so would be difficult to run an attractive bus service along it into Sheffield without somehow providing a bus lane.

 

but there is a train line right there, put a station in and run a shuttle train into the city centre??

If parking there was cheap/free you'd bring in a decent number of people who currently pay to park in the centre.

 

Don't forget Nunnery Square only has around 300 spaces as well

Edited September 19, 2018 by geared

[tzijlstra 11]

No public transport system in the world can cope with individual journey requirements from one suburb to a border industrial area. They are not good for that- they are good at moving the masses into and out of the City Centre.

 

Bus services in the west of the city are generally good.

If you live in Fulwood and work in the City get a bike its faster. If lazy get a Brompton.

As you are invariably in the same traffic jam, cars are not particular faster at rush hour than a bus.

 

Everyone's needs and circumstances are different, public transport is never going to be an answer for everyone but it should aspire to be an attractive alternative to most.

 

As you will know, the line I proposed would be adding to connections to the City. It would also conveniently cover areas currently not well served by public transport.

 

Also, visit Oslo, or indeed Amsterdam, or even London. The model works there. Oslo is 50% larger than the Sheffield Metropolitan Area, yet it has a super effective public transport system that puts the Supertram to shame, let's stop coming up with excuses. If Sheffield is to be a force in the North, it needs a public transport system to match.

[Planner1 428]

but there is a train line right there, put a station in and run a shuttle train into the city centre??

If parking there was cheap/free you'd bring in a decent number of people who currently pay to park in the centre.

 

Don't forget Nunnery Square only has around 300 spaces as well

 

How are you going to get these trains into the Midland Station, which has significant capacity issues?

 

Where is the rolling stock coming from?

 

How is it all going to be paid for?

 

Heavy Rail based strategic park and ride is basically a non-starter. Too difficult, too expensive.

 

---------- Post added 19-09-2018 at 21:27 ----------

 

In general - this is exactly why our councils aren't moving ahead with these schemes, because their civil servants tell them it is not feasible. Sheffield does a great job at this and not thinking ahead and showing leadership is a direct result.

 

The city centre isn't well served by public transport to support the Heart of the City scheme, even here in Hillsborough. If I want to go to work in Chesterfield on a regular basis by public transport I have to calculate another 20 minutes on top of my commute. If I worked in the city and lived in Fulwood, the same thing applies. If I live in Hillsborough and have to get to the AMRC/AMP I am far better off with the car. The network could and should be far more extensive for a city this size.

Civil Servants work for the Government, Council Officers work for the Council.

 

Thinking ahead and showing leadership is fine, but big infrastructure needs big money and that usually comes from the Government. The Officers understand very well what the Government is and is not prepared to fund and advise their politicians accordingly.

 

We'll have to disagree. I believe the city centre is actually well served by public transport. We have a tram system that is the envy of most cities in the UK. Leeds would love a tram system like ours. The bus service is pretty decent in many areas and we have some good, high frequency services.

 

It isn't a reasonable ask to expect there to be pretty much door to door public transport from home to everywhere you might want to go, even to other towns.

 

The cities you are comparing Sheffield to are capital cities in other countries. They have different approaches to public transport and funding infrastructure. You aren't comparing like with like.

 

---------- Post added 19-09-2018 at 21:29 ----------

 

Hmmm... that's a good one...

 

... now if only the council had a planning department whose job it was to come up with solutions to problems like this.

 

The planning department deals with planning applications.

[tzijlstra 11]

The Officers understand very well what the Government is and is not prepared to fund and advise their politicians accordingly.

 

We will have to disagree indeed. I don't think the officers have much understanding of leadership and long-term thinking. If they did we'd have cycle lanes funded by the EU that actually benefited cyclists.

 

London gets what it gets because their local officers have a convenient link directly into government, when the Sheffield council was afforded a similar opportunity by creating the Sheffield City Region proper, it messed around and didn't take the opportunities available.

 

This will bore people in Sheffield to death, but Chesterfield has announced a billion pounds worth of inward investment in the last two calendar years - forward thinking. Doncaster has benefited enormously from its council pushing ahead with their philosophy of becoming a logistical hub in the last decade, forward thinking.

 

Compared to those two, Sheffield is lagging behind, and that is on the doorstep... One thing Brits are very good at: Selling themselves short, let's break out of that cycle and actually make things work properly. Where I grew up the local authorities (jointly) invested 184 million euros into a road link to try and boost the economy of a 40,000 people community. Extrapolate that sort of thinking to Sheffield. Nothing stopping us except ourselves and the people we choose to represent us.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

As you will know, the line I proposed would be adding to connections to the City. It would also conveniently cover areas currently not well served by public transport.

 

Also, visit Oslo, or indeed Amsterdam, or even London. The model works there. Oslo is 50% larger than the Sheffield Metropolitan Area, yet it has a super effective public transport system that puts the Supertram to shame, let's stop coming up with excuses. If Sheffield is to be a force in the North, it needs a public transport system to match.

 

Oslo, Amsterdam and London are not comparable economically with Sheffield.

 

The northern section of the line you propose from Deepcar to City has been studied by Arup at the request of its supporters. It has no practical future as a commuter line.

 

The southern section is a classic example of where a bus service has the advantage over trams- short distance, high density population. Once further out there is insufficient population in the valley floor.

 

The Sheffield City region does need a light rail system but not one designed by car users who want to move other vehicles from their routes and not one based on the heavy rail routes who lost the majority of their stations through under use not Beeching.

When the current tram system was suggested it was adapted to changing economic needs and regeneration. This process needs to be done again now and with urgency so the Sheffield region has a chance for sustained economic growth.

So lets stop wasting energy on the value of a tram stop at Wharncliffe and look how the new economic and residential areas can be connected into Sheffield City region.

 

But, as you correctly point out tzijlstra, politics in the UK and lack of regional clout and the end of EU funding will doom any regional projects and the piecemeal, stand alone, un-coordinated, wasteful approach will continue.

[Mr Bloke 1,445]

The planning department deals with planning applications.

Hmmm...

 

... it appears that 'attention to detail' is also not a prerequisite to life as a council employee.

 

I'm sure the 'Planning department' do indeed deal with planning applications, and I can only apologise for making my post ambiguous by using the words 'planning department' to suggest the existence of a group of people whose job it is to strategise or formulate future plans.

 

So, for the benefit of the many pedants out there maybe you'll be able to tell us the correct name of the council department in which this underutilised band of public employees pass their time?

[tzijlstra 11]

Oslo, Amsterdam and London are not comparable economically with Sheffield.

 

The northern section of the line you propose from Deepcar to City has been studied by Arup at the request of its supporters. It has no practical future as a commuter line.

 

The southern section is a classic example of where a bus service has the advantage over trams- short distance, high density population. Once further out there is insufficient population in the valley floor.

 

The Sheffield City region does need a light rail system but not one designed by car users who want to move other vehicles from their routes and not one based on the heavy rail routes who lost the majority of their stations through under use not Beeching.

When the current tram system was suggested it was adapted to changing economic needs and regeneration. This process needs to be done again now and with urgency so the Sheffield region has a chance for sustained economic growth.

So lets stop wasting energy on the value of a tram stop at Wharncliffe and look how the new economic and residential areas can be connected into Sheffield City region.

 

But, as you correctly point out tzijlstra, politics in the UK and lack of regional clout and the end of EU funding will doom any regional projects and the piecemeal, stand alone, un-coordinated, wasteful approach will continue.

 

I respect your opinion on matters public transport Annie, I disagree with your view of the proposal though as I think it should be seen in conjunction to each other. A new line connecting the areas as I proposed would open up development opportunities in future. In the North of Sheffield there is space to develop new housing and indeed business, but only if the infrastructure exists.

 

The South West might be served by buses, but a tram/metro connection leading right into the city would create a significant reduction on car-traffic in that area, traffic around Chesterfield Road, Abbeydale Road and Ecclesall Road is notoriously bad, particularly during rush hour. A line leading out towards More would open up future development of the area between Dronfield and Sheffield without adding to that pressure.

 

Long term views, that is where we agree unfortunately...

[1978 14]

Nottingham seem to be getting it right and their tram network is expanding. However, it still gets stuck in traffic.

 

The Tyne & Wear Metro provides a much faster link, but stops less frequently and follows old railway tracks. They've managed to get some expansion using those old tracks. Like us they'd like to expand further, both where tracks still exist (towards Blyth and Ashington) and where no tracks exist. On their wish list was St James under the west side of Newcastle and across the river to the Metrocentre. I understand foundations for building work at St James may now have killed that plan even if cash had been available - which it wasn't.

[Cyclone 10]

The "do nothing" case is always part of the analysis in a DfT business case.

 

---------- Post added 19-09-2018 at 16:47 ----------

 

 

There's nowhere near enough people to justify mass transit at the moment.

 

Will people who live at Waverley use public transport? Or will they live there because of the good road links?

They certainly won't use it if it doesn't exist. Which seems to be the circular argument you're making.

 

SCC are looking into the potential for mass transit to Waverley the future including utilising the rail line as you mention.

 

Widening the Parkway down near J33 is already on the cards. Rotherham Council are currently developing a business case to submit to DfT.

 

How does this help? You're always keen to tell us that it's junctions that determine the road capacity...

[alchemist 35]

How are you going to get these trains into the Midland Station, which has significant capacity issues?

 

 

And yet, THAT is where SCC wants the HS2 to go!!:huh:

 

Mind, 1 train an hour isnt that much extra capacity is it

 

---------- Post added 20-09-2018 at 07:59 ----------

 

We will have to disagree indeed. I don't think the officers have much understanding of leadership and long-term thinking. If they did we'd have cycle lanes funded by the EU that actually benefited cyclists.

 

London gets what it gets because their local officers have a convenient link directly into government, when the Sheffield council was afforded a similar opportunity by creating the Sheffield City Region proper, it messed around and didn't take the opportunities available.

 

This will bore people in Sheffield to death, but Chesterfield has announced a billion pounds worth of inward investment in the last two calendar years - forward thinking. Doncaster has benefited enormously from its council pushing ahead with their philosophy of becoming a logistical hub in the last decade, forward thinking.

 

Compared to those two, Sheffield is lagging behind, and that is on the doorstep... One thing Brits are very good at: Selling themselves short, let's break out of that cycle and actually make things work properly. Where I grew up the local authorities (jointly) invested 184 million euros into a road link to try and boost the economy of a 40,000 people community. Extrapolate that sort of thinking to Sheffield. Nothing stopping us except ourselves and the people we choose to represent us.

 

I think that you are selling the SCC short, they put alot of effort into making sure that we gained sod all benefit from HS2

[dutch 68]

Development?

We cannot even maintain existing trains and busses here.

Everything is done by talking, thinking about ideas promised with a future date that never comes.

When I was little I played with expensive toy model trains and learned a lot from that.

 

Public transport is not some silly boardgame to be played by unexperienced politicians who are not in touch with the real world anylonger.

I dont believe in society, all societies have put dreamers in charge of some fantasy that is never going to happen. You put a carrot on the end of the stick and the donkey starts walking but it never gets to the carrot.

People think they are smart but most I know fall for the same trick just like a donkey.