It's Our City Campaign - Have you Signed?

[dave_the_m 61]

Well, if the petition turns out to be immensely flawed, then one would assume it will take the powers-that-be at SCC (who have  a strong vested interest in finding flaws) about five minutes to find the obvious flaws and reject the petition. So there's nothing to worry about, surely?

[Robin-H 11]

1 hour ago, Annie Bynnol said:

The question I asked was included "...on the same level as Sheffield City Council...".

I was hoping for an examples of Metropolitan Councils i.e. the big historical cities with the similar characteristics. Maybe Reading and Brighton as they are unitary authorities but totally different characteristics -the others aren't comparable at all.

 

I knew that you phrased the question so that you could dismiss any of the examples I gave. You could dismiss absolutely anything for not having 'similar characteristics'. 

 

Explain to me why that would matter to your argument at all? You've claimed that the committee system is worse than the current 'strong leader' model because it leaves the committees more open to influence and activists. You have provided absolutely no evidence for this, or even any logical suggestion as to why that might be the case. How do the examples I gave not work as examples against that argument. None of the them have been affected by undue influence due to the change of the governance system, and so you dismiss then because they don't have the same 'characteristics' as Sheffield. Why does that matter at all! 

 

Either you think larger committees are more easily influenced or they aren't. Why does the characteristics of the place come into it at all? 

[Annie Bynnol 612]

 

24 minutes ago, Robin-H said:

I knew that you phrased the question so that you could dismiss any of the examples I gave. You could dismiss absolutely anything for not having 'similar characteristics'. 

 

Explain to me why that would matter to your argument at all? You've claimed that the committee system is worse than the current 'strong leader' model because it leaves the committees more open to influence and activists. You have provided absolutely no evidence for this, or even any logical suggestion as to why that might be the case. How do the examples I gave not work as examples against that argument. None of the them have been affected by undue influence due to the change of the governance system, and so you dismiss then because they don't have the same 'characteristics' as Sheffield. Why does that matter at all! 

 

Either you think larger committees are more easily influenced or they aren't. Why does the characteristics of the place come into it at all? 

Have any similar large and populous Metropolitan District Councils adopted this new system?

 

Fylde Council covers a collection of  sprawling seaside towns, fields and villages, which is not comparable with Sheffield. 

Judgements made on the effectiveness of a style governance there would not be applicable to Sheffield.

Also Fylde has a specific issue that has resulted in massive pressure on Council members and Council workers from outsiders, the media and vested interests.

 

As for large committees -see post 141.

 

 

 

[Robin-H 11]

9 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

 

Have any similar large and populous Metropolitan District Councils adopted this new system?

 

Fylde Council covers a collection of  sprawling seaside towns, fields and villages, which is not comparable with Sheffield. 

Judgements made on the effectiveness of a style governance there would not be applicable to Sheffield.

Also Fylde has a specific issue that has resulted in massive pressure on Council members and Council workers from outsiders, the media and vested interests.

 

As for large committees -see post 141.

 

 

 

There is absolutely no reason why the apparent problems you've highlighted (in post 141, and others -  for which there is absolutely no proof by the way), would only effect large and populous Metropolitan councils. Why would Sheffield have that problem and Brighton and Hove not? It doesn't make any sense. It would appear that you are trying to find any excuse to dismiss the other councils that have successfully done this and claim that for some reason it wouldn't work in Sheffield. What next, is Sheffield not close enough to the sea or something? 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Robin-H

[Annie Bynnol 612]

On 05/09/2019 at 08:37, Robin-H said:

There is absolutely no reason why the apparent problems you've highlighted (in post 141, and others -  for which there is absolutely no proof by the way), would only effect large and populous Metropolitan councils. Why would Sheffield have that problem and Brighton and Hove not? It doesn't make any sense. It would appear that you are trying to find any excuse to dismiss the other councils that have successfully done this and claim that for some reason it wouldn't work in Sheffield. What next, is Sheffield not close enough to the sea or something? 

So there are no populous Metropolitan District Councils that have adopted this new system.

So we cannot compare the decision making processes and make an assessment.

 

Brighton and Hove Council is not a good example, it has probably the most coverage of any unitary Council in the country, mostly adverse-not a success.

 

[Robin-H 11]

33 minutes ago, Annie Bynnol said:

So there are no populous Metropolitan District Councils that have adopted this new system.

So we cannot compare the decision making processes and make an assessment.

 

Brighton and Hove Council is not a good example, it has probably the most coverage of any unitary Council in the country, mostly adverse-not a success.

 

You are failing to explain why that matters. 

 

What problems have the committee system caused in Brighton and Hove? Please provide examples where the fact the system is a committee system is the problem, not just things you don't like about Brighton. I'll wait. 

[Annie Bynnol 612]

3 hours ago, Robin-H said:

You are failing to explain why that matters. 

 

What problems have the committee system caused in Brighton and Hove? Please provide examples where the fact the system is a committee system is the problem, not just things you don't like about Brighton. I'll wait. 

I like Brighton.

People in Sheffield have been asked to  consider "change".

When people are being sold "change" they are usually offered examples or references.

I would expect examples of a comparable nature i.e.  Metropolitan District Councils - but apparently there are none.

Brighton and Hove- a City yes, Hilly yes. Chaotic Council -yes. Good example of anything?

Next example is Fylde(which is a town according to the Campaign). I would expect a House Insurance salesperson to provide me comparisons with other House Insurances, not Carpet Insurance.

 

As no comparable Councils exist that run the proposed system, how are Sheffield people to know if it's a good thing?

 

 

[Robin-H 11]

7 minutes ago, Annie Bynnol said:

I like Brighton.

People in Sheffield have been asked to  consider "change".

When people are being sold "change" they are usually offered examples or references.

I would expect examples of a comparable nature i.e.  Metropolitan District Councils - but apparently there are none.

Brighton and Hove- a City yes, Hilly yes. Chaotic Council -yes. Good example of anything?

Next example is Fylde(which is a town according to the Campaign). I would expect a House Insurance salesperson to provide me comparisons with other House Insurances, not Carpet Insurance.

 

As no comparable Councils exist that run the proposed system, how are Sheffield people to know if it's a good thing?

 

 

Is there a reason why you can't answer my question... 

 

1) What problems have the committee system caused in Brighton and Hove? Please provide examples where the fact the system is a committee system is the problem.

 

2) What is it that means that current committee systems can not be used as examples for Sheffield? Why does it have to be a large metropolitan district council? 

[dave_the_m 61]

16 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

As no comparable Councils exist that run the proposed system, how are Sheffield people to know if it's a good thing?

By that logic it's impossible for any large metropolitan councils to ever change - everyone is paralysed waiting for someone else to jump first.

Edited September 7, 2019 by dave_the_m
quoting messed up

[Annie Bynnol 612]

8 hours ago, dave_the_m said:

By that logic it's impossible for any large metropolitan councils to ever change - everyone is paralysed waiting for someone else to jump first.

Too far removed to be described as Logic.

That would requires a build up of steps to form an argument.

 

It will be made by people hearing the evidence laid before them.

That requires evidence of a similar Councils being more effective and benefitting the whole community.

The evidence so far is to provide the names of a handful of Councils.

None come from places similar to Sheffield.

The two unitary (out of 55) Councils provide either negative (the failures of Brighton and Hove  City Council and the removal from power of its ruling party is not an indication of success) or worrying (Reading )where the  Finance Committee is scrutinizing itself and the Auditors are in.

The others are not unitary Councils like Sheffield. 

 

Evidence really does need to be placed in front of Sheffield people in order to help us decide what is the best for us.

We must not be driven into something set up by Political Activists with their own agenda.

 

[dave_the_m 61]

You are arguing (correct me if I'm wrong) that Sheffield people should not make any decision to move to a committee system unless they can first see how it worked out for a similar unitary authority.

 

Presumably you hold a similar opinion about Leeds, Newcastle etc : that their denizens should hold off on a decision until somewhere else has tried it first.

 

So can you explain to me how the first authority could ever change?

[Robin-H 11]

13 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

Too far removed to be described as Logic.

That would requires a build up of steps to form an argument.

 

It will be made by people hearing the evidence laid before them.

That requires evidence of a similar Councils being more effective and benefitting the whole community.

The evidence so far is to provide the names of a handful of Councils.

None come from places similar to Sheffield.

The two unitary (out of 55) Councils provide either negative (the failures of Brighton and Hove  City Council and the removal from power of its ruling party is not an indication of success) or worrying (Reading )where the  Finance Committee is scrutinizing itself and the Auditors are in.

The others are not unitary Councils like Sheffield. 

 

Evidence really does need to be placed in front of Sheffield people in order to help us decide what is the best for us.

We must not be driven into something set up by Political Activists with their own agenda.

 

Explain how that is down to having a committee system.