The Consequences of Brexit [part 5] Read 1st post before posting

[I1L2T3 10]

43 minutes ago, apelike said:

No I didnt as its parliament that rule and decide and not the people as as you well know.

Except when there’s a referendum right?

 

[apelike 10]

44 minutes ago, SnailyBoy said:

So, should a democracy be able to change its mind?

...Kinda...

[SnailyBoy 10]

5 minutes ago, apelike said:

...Kinda...

Come on, try harder.

 

Should a democracy be able to change its mind?

I'll help you out, again.

I think it should, that's how a democracy works.

 

[apelike 10]

27 minutes ago, I1L2T3 said:

Except when there’s a referendum right?

A referendum that is held is only advisory for parliament and parliament use it as a guide to judge as it cannot be constitutionally binding. It therefor follows that the people make a choice in a referendum but do not decide on the final outcome of that choice or how it is implemented. This referendum asked if people wanted to remain or leave and not if others weren't satisfied to have another referendum or if we should enter a deal. If it was for the people (electorate) to decide then we should just leave without any deals but parliament are now thinking on other lines, so it is parliament that get to decide not us.

 

 

[I1L2T3 10]

2 hours ago, apelike said:

Because it is a discussion forum and if no one posts then it is not a discussion forum.

Same here but it will not stop the normal stereotyping syndrome.

That’s fine but don’t turn round and say you’re a passenger in the process when you clearly have very specific views, and voted to make people poorer.

 

You own this

[I1L2T3 10]

18 minutes ago, apelike said:

A referendum that is held is only advisory for parliament and parliament use it as a guide to judge as it cannot be constitutionally binding. It therefor follows that the people make a choice in a referendum but do not decide on the final outcome of that choice or how it is implemented. This referendum asked if people wanted to remain or leave and not if others weren't satisfied to have another referendum or if we should enter a deal. If it was for the people (electorate) to decide then we should just leave without any deals but parliament are now thinking on other lines, so it is parliament that get to decide not us.

 

 

And we’ve tried to leave. We’ve spent two years negotiating it. It has failed and just a cursory look at the stated positions of cabinet ministers and senior Tories tells you why. We have:

 

1. May’s plan

2. Leadsom calling for managed no-deal

3. ERG calling for raw no deal, or a Canada+++ deal

4. Calls for a Norway-style deal

5. Rudd supporting the concept of a peoples vote

6. Some Tories like Clarke still supporting remain 

 

This is just from the Tories. There is no coherent plan. And we leave in 3 months.

 

The referendum indicated a majority preference for leaving the EU but nobody has a clue how to do it. 

 

 

 

 

[apelike 10]

2 minutes ago, I1L2T3 said:

And we’ve tried to leave. We’ve spent two years negotiating it. It has failed and just a cursory look at the stated positions of cabinet ministers and senior Tories tells you why. We have:

 

1. May’s plan

2. Leadsom calling for managed no-deal

3. ERG calling for raw no deal, or a Canada+++ deal

4. Calls for a Norway-style deal

5. Rudd supporting the concept of a peoples vote

6. Some Tories like Clarke still supporting remain 

 

This is just from the Tories. There is no coherent plan. And we leave in 3 months.

 

The referendum indicated a majority preference for leaving the EU but nobody has a clue how to do it. 

Maybe you will now understand why it is not the people who decide and it never will be. The problem is we have spent 2 years trying to negotiate a deal and that is what has been causing the delay.

[I1L2T3 10]

46 minutes ago, apelike said:

Maybe you will now understand why it is not the people who decide and it never will be. The problem is we have spent 2 years trying to negotiate a deal and that is what has been causing the delay.

You’ve got it the wrong way round. The failure of our elected politicians actually makes it imperative that the people get another say.

 

You are suggesting - it seems - that leaving is a simple process.

 

It isn’t. If you think it is that suggests you have a specific form of exit in mind, and that your stated position as a passenger is not what it seems.

 

I knew this anyway. I’m wondering why you fail to admit it.

[L00b 441]

1 hour ago, apelike said:

Maybe you will now understand why it is not the people who decide and it never will be. The problem is we have spent 2 years trying to negotiate a deal and that is what has been causing the delay.

Good diversion earlier, it went straight back onto the auld advisory referendum argument yet again.

 

The problem is not with negotiating the withdrawal agreement, nor is the delay attributable to that negotiation at all. Unless you were speaking about the internal Tory negotiations, and resulting delays compounded by May's fingernail-hanging to no.10, of course.

 

The problem is in the undeliverable Brexit which the various Leave campaigns missold to the electorate in 2016. The delay has been caused by UK politicians trying to deliver on that impossibility ever since. Or in their studious avoidance of that particular impossible elephant in the room with the public: same difference.

 

Little to do with Russians, electoral law breaking, voter age and/or gullibility, etc. All to do with amoral power mongers and kleptocrats that your political system entices and incentivises without any accountability. Because enough voters still support and defend them, notwithstandng their record and factual evidence.

 

People get the governance they deserve.

Edited December 28, 2018 by L00b

[Dardandec 32]

6 hours ago, apelike said:

No Its not up to me and as said many times before I have no input in any of the government or parliaments decisions.

It absolutely is up to you. You voted for it, you sort it out. It's the remainers who it isn't up too, we have been calling for a referendum on the final deal for ages now but we have to be silenced. Leavers can talk the talk, but they can't walk the walk. Come on leavers you are really looking like proper muppets now. 

[apelike 10]

2 hours ago, I1L2T3 said:

The failure of our elected politicians actually makes it imperative that the people get another say.

I agree it is a failure of our politicians and have never made out otherwise, but the people are not enabled get another say which is what I am trying to drum into people. We only get a say when those dodgy politicians decide we can. Our version of democracy is dealt with by elected representatives and you may think it imperative that people get another say but its simply not up to the people.

[apelike 10]

2 hours ago, I1L2T3 said:

You are suggesting - it seems - that leaving is a simple process.

No I am suggesting that there was no plan at all by those in power to believe that a leave vote was possible hence the mess, yes the mess. I and many many other leave voters thought it would actually mean cutting complete ties legally withe the EU and the time allotted would be about doing just that. Instead we have had a long drawn out process of negotiations by this govt and the EU as to what the UK thinks it can still keep in place, and the EU as to what it can get as a settlement.