Stabbings in Sheffield May 2018

[paula4sheff 10]

Would there be drug related violence if addicts could get it on prescription or buy it from Tesco?

 

---------- Post added 30-05-2018 at 08:56 ----------

 

 

If you do more than glance, and actually look at the numbers the story isn't as clear as the media are making out.

 

In what way? All I can see is that there has been a general rise in knife crime.....

[Cyclone 10]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/knife-crime-rise-england-wales-shootings-police-recorded-ons-a8322986.html

 

For example, overall violence with injury (nationwide, police recorded stats), fell from 2006 to 2013 or thereabouts, they've since increased again, but are only level with 2006 now.

[paula4sheff 10]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/knife-crime-rise-england-wales-shootings-police-recorded-ons-a8322986.html

 

For example, overall violence with injury (nationwide, police recorded stats), fell from 2006 to 2013 or thereabouts, they've since increased again, but are only level with 2006 now.

 

So it's fair to say there's a rise- but it's not at an all time high. What happened in 2006 I wonder? I presume cuts in police funding.

 

I also wonder - is the fatality via knife crime rate at an all time high?

[Cyclone 10]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43905407

 

And another graph here, which they've deliberately only taken back to 2011.

 

Knife crime has risen in the last 3 years, but statistically that's probably "regression to the norm" since it had fallen considerably in quite a few years before that.

[Harrystottle 10]

Probably not? I imagine improvements in available medical treatments might save some people who would previously have died.

[Cyclone 10]

So it's fair to say there's a rise- but it's not at an all time high. What happened in 2006 I wonder? I presume cuts in police funding.

 

I also wonder - is the fatality via knife crime rate at an all time high?

 

Austerity started in 2007, police cuts didn't take long to be applied.

 

---------- Post added 30-05-2018 at 10:28 ----------

 

Probably not? I imagine improvements in available medical treatments might save some people who would previously have died.

 

We haven't had any significant medical improvements for stab wounds in that time frame that I'm aware of. And the numbers I'm looking at weren't deaths.

Given austerity since 2007 it's possible that you'd get worse treatment, not better, perhaps being left outside A&E in an ambulance due to no space being available, or insufficiently experienced doctors being the senior staff and insufficient nurses on duty, due to funding cuts.

[Owethemnowt 10]

The comment by hackey lad merits a response:What do you know about these cases , that allows you to say they were " both failed by society " ?

 

I'll write slowly so the meaning is clear ..... you either believe in rehabilitation or retribution.

 

If the state operates interventionist measures that do not work, i.e. produce an improvement, then those measures are deemed to have failed. A fifteen year being charged with the killing of another fifteen year is fortunately extremely rare and reflects how society generally safeguards our children.

 

With me so far?

 

The state actually does intervene when needed as specific agencies are tasked with assisting. For example, social services.

 

However, if you believe that longer prison sentences, purely punitive measures, key throwing is the best answer then the state has failed you in not providing an American style prison system that sees sentences of several hundred years, along with 3 strikes and you're out.

 

That doesn't work as America locks up more persons per capita than any other country.

 

I don't have to refer to any particular cases as my focus is upon the statistical analysis of offenders.

 

Those without jobs tend to commit more crime than those in employment. Fact. Leave prison without job skills, that is no training, no rehabilitation, and the offender is 3 times as likely to re-offend and return to prison.

 

There has to be hope, an alternative to a life of crime, otherwise the cycle of crime continues. Fact. As we have no death penalty and seldom is a full life tarrif applied then the state mechanism intends to return all offenders to main stream society. Therefore the vast majority of offenders do need to be rehabilitated.

 

As this is proving impossible to achieve with current resourcing the state is failing both its citizens and its prison population.

 

If you're still with me then I suggest a lie down in a darkened room and allow the facts to be absorbed.

 

It is a complex issue that's why clever people are in charge and allowed to make decisions. It's also why extremists don't hold power in this country. There are complex societal issues to be understood and the best decisions taken in the interests of protecting our democracy. Everyone is allowed to voice their opinion but the fact is some opinions are more worth listening to than others.

 

To say 'it's disgusting' about dog excrement on pavements offers little to improve the situation. But to explain why it is digusting, unacceptable, wrong is clearly of more value and likely to see an improvement.

 

So there remains no place for knee jerk, ill conceived ideas akin to hang 'em high.

 

All clear?

 

[That doesn't mean an air raid's finished.]

[Padders 2,866]

You"ve posted some very good stuff on here owethemnowt, well thought out and well explained.. agree with you 100%.

[Jeffrey Shaw 90]

This debate has descended into the empty repitition of sterile arguments that only serve to perpetuate ignorance and intolerance.

 

There is no quick fix...[edited down]

 

Theres a lot of ( uncomfortable) truth in that post

Yes. It seems almost to reflect what someone famous once almost said about 'rivers of blood'; and that should give everyone cause for thought.

[hackey lad 3,979]

The comment by hackey lad merits a response:What do you know about these cases , that allows you to say they were " both failed by society " ?

 

I'll write slowly so the meaning is clear ..... you either believe in rehabilitation or retribution.

 

If the state operates interventionist measures that do not work, i.e. produce an improvement, then those measures are deemed to have failed. A fifteen year being charged with the killing of another fifteen year is fortunately extremely rare and reflects how society generally safeguards our children.

 

With me so far?

 

The state actually does intervene when needed as specific agencies are tasked with assisting. For example, social services.

 

However, if you believe that longer prison sentences, purely punitive measures, key throwing is the best answer then the state has failed you in not providing an American style prison system that sees sentences of several hundred years, along with 3 strikes and you're out.

 

That doesn't work as America locks up more persons per capita than any other country.

 

I don't have to refer to any particular cases as my focus is upon the statistical analysis of offenders.

 

Those without jobs tend to commit more crime than those in employment. Fact. Leave prison without job skills, that is no training, no rehabilitation, and the offender is 3 times as likely to re-offend and return to prison.

 

There has to be hope, an alternative to a life of crime, otherwise the cycle of crime continues. Fact. As we have no death penalty and seldom is a full life tarrif applied then the state mechanism intends to return all offenders to main stream society. Therefore the vast majority of offenders do need to be rehabilitated.

 

As this is proving impossible to achieve with current resourcing the state is failing both its citizens and its prison population.

 

If you're still with me then I suggest a lie down in a darkened room and allow the facts to be absorbed.

 

It is a complex issue that's why clever people are in charge and allowed to make decisions. It's also why extremists don't hold power in this country. There are complex societal issues to be understood and the best decisions taken in the interests of protecting our democracy. Everyone is allowed to voice their opinion but the fact is some opinions are more worth listening to than others.

 

To say 'it's disgusting' about dog excrement on pavements offers little to improve the situation. But to explain why it is digusting, unacceptable, wrong is clearly of more value and likely to see an improvement.

 

So there remains no place for knee jerk, ill conceived ideas akin to hang 'em high.

 

All clear?

 

[That doesn't mean an air raid's finished.]

 

Not one word of criticism there for the offenders , the very people that armed themselves and took some ones life . Its the states fault

[Penistone999 10]

Yes. It seems almost to reflect what someone famous once almost said about 'rivers of blood'; and that should give everyone cause for thought.

 

Couldnt agree more Jeffery.

 

---------- Post added 30-05-2018 at 19:54 ----------

 

Not one word of criticism there for the offenders , the very people that armed themselves and took some ones life . Its the states fault

 

Where a section of society ,of a certain political leaning are concerned, its always someone elses fault , and they go out of their way to find excuses for the behavior of these people.

[Cyclone 10]

Not one word of criticism there for the offenders , the very people that armed themselves and took some ones life . Its the states fault

 

You've missed the point so hard that it's impressive.

 

The offenders are obviously at fault for their behaviour. And they'll serve time in prison, that's punishment, it also protects the public from them for a period.

Do you actually WANT them to leave prison and commit more crime though? Is it just a criminal training camp? Or should it actually do something to reduce the chance of them reoffending?

Longer sentences is demonstrably not the answer, it doesn't work, nor does harsher punishment of any form.

So for the sake of society, for us, not for the criminals, rehabilitation is the best option.

Yes, they're at fault for their behaviour, they will serve a prison sentence as punishment, but we want them to finish that sentence and then just be normal, law abiding, citizens. We definitely don't want them to reoffend. Do we. Do you?

Edited May 31, 2018 by Cyclone