Best University? Sheffield or Hallam?

[stifflersmom 11]

Huh? It talks about international students throughout - and the headline refers to international students.

 

You're wrong - EU students can apply for student loans and grants, the same as UK students. They'e not disadvantaged in any way, shape or form. The same rules apply.

 

The reason they choose not to study in the UK is because degrees are significantly cheaper, and in some cases free, in other European countries.

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-confirms-funding-for-eu-students-for-2018-to-2019

 

Thanks...that government link contradicts the reference to EU students not being eligible for loans in the Independent article, which is interesting . In fact that Independent article is poorly written because EU and International students are not interchangeable terms. In the context of the previous discussions international effectively means non EU, as these students are the ones being charged higher fees ('fleeced' if you recall) than UK ( and EU) students. So for international (non EU) students the decline in numbers is not due to costs but due to the hostility/visa restrictions etc mentioned in the final paragraph. The fact that EU courses may cheaper than the UK, or free, for EU students is irrelevant to the original point about Chinese students.

[paula4sheff 10]

Thanks...that government link contradicts the reference to EU students not being eligible for loans in the Independent article, which is interesting . In fact that Independent article is poorly written because EU and International students are not interchangeable terms. In the context of the previous discussions international effectively means non EU, as these students are the ones being charged higher fees ('fleeced' if you recall) than UK ( and EU) students. So for international (non EU) students the decline in numbers is not due to costs but due to the hostility/visa restrictions etc mentioned in the final paragraph. The fact that EU courses may cheaper than the UK, or free, for EU students is irrelevant to the original point about Chinese students.

 

I spotted that after I posted actually - The Independent is wrong on the EU point, which is pretty poor really as you say.

 

I would be interested as to whether international students (i.e. non EU) are charged less to go to EU universities than they are ones in the UK, and whether that is having an impact. I'm not sure about that at all.

 

I don't think there's any doubt that the fact they can no longer automatically stay and work in the UK would have some sort of impact, but I don't think it's the full reason. If choosing to do a course in the UK is based so heavily around wanting to work in the UK, that suggests to me that perhaps tightening of the Visa restrictions was perhaps necessary, for a variety of reasons.

[stifflersmom 11]

It would be beneficial if the international students felt that they could stay on after studying to work and therefore contribute to the economy, pay tax etc. After all, these will be highly qualified graduates and post graduates...not exactly uncontrolled economic migrants. It isn't exactly a back door to UK work access due to the market rate for these university places either. I think Theresa May thought it was an easy hit that played to the Daily Mail crowd when she introduced this policy but it appears that it could backfire somewhat, if it hasn't already.

[Cyclone 10]

Not sure the sarcasm is necessary. Please don't stoop to a level that's clearly beneath you. You also don't know what I do for a living.

 

Not at all. I'm suggesting that that is their reading of the situation. Hence their speculation - it's not facts. It's an opinion and a viewpoint. And let's face it, senior University staff aren't going to be saying "I think the drop off in international student numbers is due to the huge fees we charge them" are they? They're going to claim their fees are just fine, as they claim that their absurdly high wages compared to their teaching staff are just fine. They will claim the problem is elsewhere.

 

Would you say then that the drop off in international students is entirely due to the fact they can't stay automatically stay in the UK to work after graduating? I certainly wouldn't.

 

Shall we change the term 'fleecing' to 'overcharging' then? I've made it clear that's what I mean.

 

I believe international students are overcharged, and that that is one of the factors fueling a drop off in international student numbers.

 

This really isn't an arguable or revealing notion - it's been widely reported.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/tuition-fee-hike-blamed-as-international-students-at-uk-universities-fall-by-a-quarter-9231151.html

 

So basically you're accusing them of being incompetent business runners who have increased prices so far as to reduce their own profit, but who for some reason deny that this has happened.

That literally makes no sense, if they're in the business of maximising profit then there is no incentive for them to raise prices too high.

 

That article btw is from 2014.

"which experts put down to the introduction of the new fees system with charges of up to £9,000 a year."

And a few seconds ago you were dismissing the opinion of experts.

 

It goes on though to say

"The report shows that the number of international students enrolling on undergraduate courses is still rising - thus partially offsetting the decline in EU recruitment "

 

I'm sure that was the first google hit you got on the search term, but you should probably have checked that it supported your assertion, it doesn't. It appears to say the opposite.

The £9000 fee that EU students have to pay (just like UK students) has reduced their numbers, but outside the EU numbers were still increasing, and they were paying considerably more than £9k, something you described as fleecing.

[paula4sheff 10]

So basically you're accusing them of being incompetent business runners who have increased prices so far as to reduce their own profit, but who for some reason deny that this has happened.

That literally makes no sense, if they're in the business of maximising profit then there is no incentive for them to raise prices too high.

 

That article btw is from 2014.

"which experts put down to the introduction of the new fees system with charges of up to £9,000 a year."

And a few seconds ago you were dismissing the opinion of experts.

 

It goes on though to say

"The report shows that the number of international students enrolling on undergraduate courses is still rising - thus partially offsetting the decline in EU recruitment "

 

I'm sure that was the first google hit you got on the search term, but you should probably have checked that it supported your assertion, it doesn't. It appears to say the opposite.

The £9000 fee that EU students have to pay (just like UK students) has reduced their numbers, but outside the EU numbers were still increasing, and they were paying considerably more than £9k, something you described as fleecing.

 

So, you're now suggesting Intenational Student numbers AREN'T falling? That's simply not true.

 

https://www.ukcisa.org.uk/Research--Policy/Statistics/International-student-statistics-UK-higher-education

 

Why do you think incredibly high fees WOULDN'T be a factor in these falling numbers, out of interest?

[alchresearch 214]

So, you're now suggesting Intenational Student numbers AREN'T falling? That's simply not true.

 

Its important to stress the difference between "international" and "EU" student numbers.

 

British universities boast record number of international student admissions, but EU numbers down

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-11-27/ucas-university-admissions-eu/

 

Fresh figures reveal a record number of international students have applied and been accepted to take degree courses at UK universities, however the number of students from EU countries has dropped.

 

Ucas, the university admissions service, said 2,090 more international, non-EU students applied to start undergraduate courses this autumn, an increase of 2.8% on last year.

 

The total number of applicants hit 76,380 - the highest on record, reversing the drop in numbers seen in 2016, while the numbers of overseas students accepted on to courses increased by 5%.

 

Applicants from the EU dropped by 4.4% to 51,185, some 2,375 fewer than in 2016, reversing a year-on-year trend that has risen since 2012.

[Cyclone 10]

So, you're now suggesting Intenational Student numbers AREN'T falling? That's simply not true.

 

https://www.ukcisa.org.uk/Research--Policy/Statistics/International-student-statistics-UK-higher-education

 

Why do you think incredibly high fees WOULDN'T be a factor in these falling numbers, out of interest?

 

What I actually did was read the old article that you'd posted, which you thought supported your point, but in reality didn't.

[Bob Arctor 11]

Watching Paula flap around in this thread for the last few days has been a delight.

 

I have found it rather painful. In her defence, the usual procedure in these situations is for the OP to silently disappear, leaving many questions unanswered. To her credit Paula has stuck to her guns, even though she appears to be pointing them at her own face.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Bob Arctor

[paula4sheff 10]

I have found it rather painful. In her defence, the usual procedure in these situations is for the OP to silently disappear, leaving many questions unanswered. To her credit Paula has stuck to her guns, even though she appears to be pointing them at her own face.

 

I'm not too sure really what there is to argue with!

 

My main points are:

 

-International Students pay fees I view as incredibly expensive.

 

-This has probably contributed to the fall in international student numbers.

 

-Universities are becoming too reliant on these fees, and there could be concerns that the drive for money might be more of a priority than academic merit. (I.e. money corrupts, to put it bluntly).

 

Are any of these points that outlandish, or revealing? Surely not?

[Bob Arctor 11]

I'm not too sure really what there is to argue with!

 

My main points are:

 

-International Students pay fees I view as incredibly expensive.

 

-This has probably contributed to the fall in international student numbers.

 

-Universities are becoming too reliant on these fees, and there could be concerns that the drive for money might be more of a priority than academic merit. (I.e. money corrupts, to put it bluntly).

 

Are any of these points that outlandish, or revealing? Surely not?

 

That's a lot tanner than saying that Sheffield Uni is "concentrating" on "fleecing" Chinese students so that standards have slipped, which is what your first post said. The blander version is the result of all the twisting and turning since then - which is fine, but mainly so when accompanied by an acknowledgement that the original post was a bit strong.

[paula4sheff 10]

That's a lot tanner than saying that Sheffield Uni is "concentrating" on "fleecing" Chinese students so that standards have slipped, which is what your first post said. The blander version is the result of all the twisting and turning since then - which is fine, but mainly so when accompanied by an acknowledgement that the original post was a bit strong.

 

Well obviously the first post was a little tongue in cheek, as so much of this forum is, but the point and issue remains I feel. The concentration on recruiting higher fee paying international students could well have compromised other things.

[ez8004 10]

Well obviously the first post was a little tongue in cheek, as so much of this forum is, but the point and issue remains I feel. The concentration on recruiting higher fee paying international students could well have compromised other things.

 

Like?

 

I have already debunked your idea that academic standards are compromised. So what else is there?