Sheffield train electrification cancellation hidden by tories.

[Guest busdriver1]

I'm not confusing it with HS2 at all (another massive white elephant) but you still haven't answered why Sheffield would be at a disadvantage. you can use the reverse argument of it been a slower service causing a disadvantage but you havent given an actual credible back up that is relative to the economy nor did you explain why doncaster isnt booming because it has a service that is currently quicker than Sheffield.

 

If you are saying we will be at a disadvantage when the trains are slower then how are we at one now in comparison to local cities that already have a quicker existing service.

 

What reduction are you anticipating if the electrification doesnt occur.

 

The present hourly service is 2 hours 2 min if you get the 29 min past train not 2hr15.

 

And i would argue that if you were travelling from London SP to Sheffield in a car your average speed would be lower than 55MPH given the existing roads and speed restrictions in place.

There are currently 3 stretches of the M1 with 50 mph speed restrictions in place over lengthy stretches. When these are done more will follow. Eventually the whole M1 will have been done, in the same way there will be restrictions during improvements on MML. A non argument again.

[alchresearch 214]

North's transport body takes up powers at first meeting

A body created to overhaul transport in northern England is to meet for the first time as it takes up new powers.

 

Transport for the North (TfN) will hold its first board meeting in Liverpool with Transport Minister Jo Johnson.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43645472

[Annie Bynnol 612]

I'm not confusing it with HS2 at all (another massive white elephant) but you still haven't answered why Sheffield would be at a disadvantage. you can use the reverse argument of it been a slower service causing a disadvantage but you havent given an actual credible back up that is relative to the economy nor did you explain why doncaster isnt booming because it has a service that is currently quicker than Sheffield.

 

If you are saying we will be at a disadvantage when the trains are slower then how are we at one now in comparison to local cities that already have a quicker existing service.

 

What reduction are you anticipating if the electrification doesnt occur.

 

The present hourly service is 2 hours 2 min if you get the 29 min past train not 2hr15.

 

And i would argue that if you were travelling from London SP to Sheffield in a car your average speed would be lower than 55MPH given the existing roads and speed restrictions in place.

 

As I have already said:

The MML is electrified to Bedford and is being electrified to Kettering (then branches to Corby).

MML electrification north from Kettering has been cancelled as has the proposed order for the electric trains.

The maximum speed permitted between Bedford and London is 125 mph for diesels and 100 mph for all electrics. As most of the section is four track the fast diesels are currently separated from the slower and stopping electrics meaning 125 mph is possible all the way from Sheffield to London.

The Corby semi-fasts are going to be using the same tracks as our diesels thus reducing our Meridian and HST to 100 mph and less as they follow the slower and stopping new Corby electrics. Poor acceleration of the heavy old diesels means even more time losses and pathing problems. Current work will only make the current timetable more robust in dealing with delay.

 

A new timetable will have to include this problem.

Solutions are:

fewer trains

fewer stops

new trains

Bi-modes are not the solution as the current design suggests that they will have maximum speeds of about 110 with very poor acceleration and so much heavy wear and tear on track that there will be many speed restrictions introduced.

 

To average 55 mph on any journey would require some travel at higher speeds to balance the slower speeds.

Reducing the max. speed to 55 would obviously reduce the average speed of the whole journey.

 

Ease of journey is always a positive factor in business to business dealings and choices.

[sheffbag 227]

As I have already said:

The MML is electrified to Bedford and is being electrified to Kettering (then branches to Corby).

MML electrification north from Kettering has been cancelled as has the proposed order for the electric trains.

The maximum speed permitted between Bedford and London is 125 mph for diesels and 100 mph for all electrics. As most of the section is four track the fast diesels are currently separated from the slower and stopping electrics meaning 125 mph is possible all the way from Sheffield to London.

The Corby semi-fasts are going to be using the same tracks as our diesels thus reducing our Meridian and HST to 100 mph and less as they follow the slower and stopping new Corby electrics. Poor acceleration of the heavy old diesels means even more time losses and pathing problems. Current work will only make the current timetable more robust in dealing with delay.

 

A new timetable will have to include this problem.

Solutions are:

fewer trains

fewer stops

new trains

Bi-modes are not the solution as the current design suggests that they will have maximum speeds of about 110 with very poor acceleration and so much heavy wear and tear on track that there will be many speed restrictions introduced.

 

To average 55 mph on any journey would require some travel at higher speeds to balance the slower speeds.

Reducing the max. speed to 55 would obviously reduce the average speed of the whole journey.

 

Ease of journey is always a positive factor in business to business dealings and choices.

Still not said why its a disadvantage. How is your final sentence quantifiable in monetary terms as you are claiming it will "put Sheffield at a disadvantage"?

No point talking about other towns. Tell me why it will put it Sheffield down.

 

i'll comment on your last sentance another way. In both my jobs i deal with both customers and suppliers form all over the UK and abroad. about 20% of these are based in South Yorkshire. I have never said "i wont deal with a company due to the train link" as a reason for turning down business or rejecting a supplier, nor have i ever heard anyone say it in my earshot. I work with people who travel to Sheffield by train from Hull, Stockport and West Yorkshire and it hasnt stopped them from choosing to work here or been offered a position.

Edited April 5, 2018 by sheffbag

[pss60 10]

As I have already said:

The MML is electrified to Bedford and is being electrified to Kettering (then branches to Corby).

MML electrification north from Kettering has been cancelled as has the proposed order for the electric trains.

The maximum speed permitted between Bedford and London is 125 mph for diesels and 100 mph for all electrics. As most of the section is four track the fast diesels are currently separated from the slower and stopping electrics meaning 125 mph is possible all the way from Sheffield to London.

The Corby semi-fasts are going to be using the same tracks as our diesels thus reducing our Meridian and HST to 100 mph and less as they follow the slower and stopping new Corby electrics. Poor acceleration of the heavy old diesels means even more time losses and pathing problems. Current work will only make the current timetable more robust in dealing with delay.

 

A new timetable will have to include this problem.

Solutions are:

fewer trains

fewer stops

new trains

Bi-modes are not the solution as the current design suggests that they will have maximum speeds of about 110 with very poor acceleration and so much heavy wear and tear on track that there will be many speed restrictions introduced.

 

To average 55 mph on any journey would require some travel at higher speeds to balance the slower speeds.

Reducing the max. speed to 55 would obviously reduce the average speed of the whole journey.

 

Ease of journey is always a positive factor in business to business dealings and choices.

People in Sheffield and South Yorkshire don't want rail links modernising and swish new electric trains, not only to London but to other major towns and cities, like Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Bristol, Newcastle, Glasgow etc. They'd go back to the horse and cart if they could, while still moaning about the South East getting this and that.

[sheffbag 227]

We do but as i put, i would rather the money spent on cross country services to Manchester, Liverpool, the North West, Scotland, etc than obsessing over getting to and from London

[pss60 10]

We do but as i put, i would rather the money spent on cross country services to Manchester, Liverpool, the North West, Scotland, etc than obsessing over getting to and from London

And part of that improvement is Midland Mainline electrification throughout from London to Leeds via Sheffield, with further electrifications to Doncaster, Birmingham, Bristol, Exeter etc, which should have been done years ago, instead of bribing voters with false tax cuts and neglecting the infrastructure.

Edited April 5, 2018 by pss60

[Annie Bynnol 612]

Still not said why its a disadvantage. How is your final sentence quantifiable in monetary terms as you are claiming it will "put Sheffield at a disadvantage"?

No point talking about other towns. Tell me why it will put it Sheffield down.

 

Neither traditional or current industries are going to bring in the growth that this region requires.

When choosing a place to locate, a business has to consider a whole range of factors to locate. Attractors.

Every different business will value these attractors differently and the sum of these attractors will set the location.

If a business like Boeing or Channel 4 etc. decide that people movement on a regional, national, international or global isa critical factor then transportation links are crucial.

If the quality of the transport links of one location are inferior, it might therefore be the deciding factor.

[Guest]

The non-existant Bi-modes will make the journey slower still if ever introduced.

 

Just re-read that, the class 800s are bi-mode aren't they?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_800

[Annie Bynnol 612]

Just re-read that, the class 800s are bi-mode aren't they?

 

 

As I said:

"Bi-modes are not the solution as the current design suggests that they will have maximum speeds of about 110 with very poor acceleration and so much heavy wear and tear on track that there will be many speed restrictions introduced."

There is no design for a bi-mode that could cope with the much bigger demands of the MML between Kettering and Sheffield.

Ironically the Bi-modes could run faster at 125 in diesel mode under the wires between Bedford and London.

 

A bit more:

There are versions of the 800s

2 pure electrics of different lengths

2 pure electrics of different lengths with slow speed "get me out of trouble" engines.

2 bi-modes of different lengths and diesel engine power.

 

The best performing short bi-modes are comparable to the much longer HSTs and both inferior to the Meridians and all inferior to pure electrics.

Most of non wired VTEC and GWR sections have significantly lower line speeds, fewer stops and traffic than the MML.

Peak power developed by the diesel on the 800s is insufficient on the MML.

[sheffbag 227]

Neither traditional or current industries are going to bring in the growth that this region requires.

When choosing a place to locate, a business has to consider a whole range of factors to locate. Attractors.

Every different business will value these attractors differently and the sum of these attractors will set the location.

If a business like Boeing or Channel 4 etc. decide that people movement on a regional, national, international or global isa critical factor then transportation links are crucial.

If the quality of the transport links of one location are inferior, it might therefore be the deciding factor.

Doesn't seem to be stopping stopping the likes of global brands like Rolls Royce or McLaren

 

---------- Post added 06-04-2018 at 09:12 ----------

 

Neither traditional or current industries are going to bring in the growth that this region requires.

When choosing a place to locate, a business has to consider a whole range of factors to locate. Attractors.

Every different business will value these attractors differently and the sum of these attractors will set the location.

If a business like Boeing or Channel 4 etc. decide that people movement on a regional, national, international or global isa critical factor then transportation links are crucial.

If the quality of the transport links of one location are inferior, it might therefore be the deciding factor.

Annie

Given my job i completely understand the value of attractors. You are right in that traditional or current industries are not going to bring in the growth. Its the digital industries that will do that and they are not travel location dependent

I would rank

Cost of positioning the business and potential workforce skillset well over whether a train is 10 min slower to travel 150 odd miles if i was locating a new business or moving an existing one.

 

Im bailing out here as i dont think you have given one measureble reason as to why Sheffield will be at a disadvantage (your words) if the electrification doesn't occur. a couple of "might be" and a "maybe" but nothing really to back up your comment so i'm out of it as we will just go round in circles.

 

If your post (as by the title) was just a reason to knock the Tories then no worries, a politician lied to get what they wanted, that's never happened before has it? #studentdebt #iraqwar

Edited April 6, 2018 by sheffbag

[pss60 10]

Doesn't seem to be stopping stopping the likes of global brands like Rolls Royce or McLaren

 

---------- Post added 06-04-2018 at 09:12 ----------

 

Annie

Given my job i completely understand the value of attractors. You are right in that traditional or current industries are not going to bring in the growth. Its the digital industries that will do that and they are not travel location dependent

I would rank

Cost of positioning the business and potential workforce skillset well over whether a train is 10 min slower to travel 150 odd miles if i was locating a new business or moving an existing one.

 

Im bailing out here as i dont think you have given one measureble reason as to why Sheffield will be at a disadvantage (your words) if the electrification doesn't occur. a couple of "might be" and a "maybe" but nothing really to back up your comment so i'm out of it as we will just go round in circles.

 

If your post (as by the title) was just a reason to knock the Tories then no worries, a politician lied to get what they wanted, that's never happened before has it? #studentdebt #iraqwar

Of all the core cities, Sheffield still has the lowest GVA per head of population, and South Yorkshire one of the lowest in the country. Leeds has one of the highest GVA figures per head of the core cities with only Bristol higher, and has had electric services to London since 1989.

 

---------- Post added 06-04-2018 at 11:52 ----------

 

North's transport body takes up powers at first meeting

A body created to overhaul transport in northern England is to meet for the first time as it takes up new powers.

 

Transport for the North (TfN) will hold its first board meeting in Liverpool with Transport Minister Jo Johnson.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43645472

What we'll get is a load of hot air. It's easy to be promised £13 billion or make vacuous soundbites about it - and this is just another soundbite - but rather harder to get it. After all, wasn't Midland Mainline electrification to Sheffield withdrawn last July, with the decision having been made four months earlier and hidden from the voters?

Edited April 6, 2018 by pss60