Sheffield train electrification cancellation hidden by tories.

[Guest makapaka]

And what is the population of the travel to work area of the South East compared to Yorkshire? Let me have a guess, about 7 times the size. Looks to me like they are getting a rough deal.

 

Maybe that’s because we don’t have the infrastructure.

 

It’s alright saying more people travel in the south east - that’s because they have the transport links to do so.

 

We’re 30 something miles from Manchester but tell someone you’re working there and expect a sympathetic eye roll. We should be able to get there in half an hour every half hour.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

Point noted.

 

Thank you for confirming that you dont have anything to back up your submissions. I am not prepared to waste any more time on you.

 

Statement: "Electrification will only get back on the drawing board if the Tories get removed from office."

 

Reply: "Based on what evidence?? "

 

Statement: When the political decisions are NOT made by a Government run by a party who have changed their mind on electrification five times in 8 years.

 

Political decisions are being made based on financial needs and the inability of Network Rail to deliver.

Transport infrastructure projects are long term and should be managed thus.

Announcements are timed by Governments to maximise image and support.

 

This Government has been found out.

[1978 14]

Having asked a specific question of the DfT about this time I can say that they may well have used the election purdah period to their advantage. That was the reason they gave me for not giving an answer. Purdah is when civil servants are barred from making any announcements in the period from the announcement of the election (22nd April) until the election day (8th June). For definition see; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purdah_(pre-election_period)

 

Who said what to whom and when then comes into play. I'm afraid many political parties believe what they want to believe and accept information they're given as facts without proper scrutiny. Civil servants aren't so different and the tendency in all organisations is to give the boss what they want.

 

In this case I'd strongly suspect that the severity of the cost and time over runs on the Great Western electrification scheme were not fully getting through to the top as to the implications for further schemes. At some point the awful truth must have started to dawn and the fat hit the fan. Network Rail had got a lot of sums wrong and made forecasts they couldn't possibly meet. Mark Carne their Chief Executive announced his retirement on 6th February. The DfT will have had suspicions, but the full enormity of the situation seems to have been slow to sink in at the political level.

 

It gets worse. Read the latest on how the Rail Network Enhancements Pipleline is to be managed; https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/691719/rail-network-enhancements-pipeline.pdf

 

Trying not to be too cynical, butwhat it amounts to is that they can agree a project, maybe even start it, but can stop it at any time, and maybe never do it at all. So there we have it in black and white. However, it probably only confirms what already happens.

 

Like we know Network Rail were proposing to redouble the tracks through Dore & Totley station at least as long ago as 2005, yet there's still no more than a vague statement about taking 2-3 years to construct starting, maybe, in 2019. (Evidence of 2005; https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.uk/online-applications/advancedSearchResults.do?action=firstPage ) Can anyone imagine a government getting away with such delays in leafy Surbiton?

 

Unfortunately South Yorkshire has been politically trapped between Conservative governments and Labour local councils for too many decades. Withoiut a local Tory voice in Parliament we miss out. Lee Rowley in North East Derbyshire is currently getting some attention and has taken up rail issues. From our area only he and Dan Jarvis spoke in the Transport in the North debate on 6th November; https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2017-11-06/debates/DC905F80-1791-4A37-880F-4EB9B958F9A0/TransportInTheNorth

[pss60 10]

Having asked a specific question of the DfT about this time I can say that they may well have used the election purdah period to their advantage. That was the reason they gave me for not giving an answer. Purdah is when civil servants are barred from making any announcements in the period from the announcement of the election (22nd April) until the election day (8th June). For definition see; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purdah_(pre-election_period)

 

Who said what to whom and when then comes into play. I'm afraid many political parties believe what they want to believe and accept information they're given as facts without proper scrutiny. Civil servants aren't so different and the tendency in all organisations is to give the boss what they want.

 

In this case I'd strongly suspect that the severity of the cost and time over runs on the Great Western electrification scheme were not fully getting through to the top as to the implications for further schemes. At some point the awful truth must have started to dawn and the fat hit the fan. Network Rail had got a lot of sums wrong and made forecasts they couldn't possibly meet. Mark Carne their Chief Executive announced his retirement on 6th February. The DfT will have had suspicions, but the full enormity of the situation seems to have been slow to sink in at the political level.

 

It gets worse. Read the latest on how the Rail Network Enhancements Pipleline is to be managed; https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/691719/rail-network-enhancements-pipeline.pdf

 

Trying not to be too cynical, butwhat it amounts to is that they can agree a project, maybe even start it, but can stop it at any time, and maybe never do it at all. So there we have it in black and white. However, it probably only confirms what already happens.

 

Like we know Network Rail were proposing to redouble the tracks through Dore & Totley station at least as long ago as 2005, yet there's still no more than a vague statement about taking 2-3 years to construct starting, maybe, in 2019. (Evidence of 2005; https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.uk/online-applications/advancedSearchResults.do?action=firstPage ) Can anyone imagine a government getting away with such delays in leafy Surbiton?

 

Unfortunately South Yorkshire has been politically trapped between Conservative governments and Labour local councils for too many decades. Withoiut a local Tory voice in Parliament we miss out. Lee Rowley in North East Derbyshire is currently getting some attention and has taken up rail issues. From our area only he and Dan Jarvis spoke in the Transport in the North debate on 6th November; https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2017-11-06/debates/DC905F80-1791-4A37-880F-4EB9B958F9A0/TransportInTheNorth

There have been two vociferous Tory MPs on the Midland Mainline route who back electrification - Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, but even they haven't been listened to, so that knocks back your argument of needing more Tory MPs. What we need is far fewer Tory MPs and certainly fewer cap doffers in the country.

 

---------- Post added 02-04-2018 at 08:34 ----------

 

Statement: "Electrification will only get back on the drawing board if the Tories get removed from office."

 

Reply: "Based on what evidence?? "

 

Statement: When the political decisions are NOT made by a Government run by a party who have changed their mind on electrification five times in 8 years.

 

Political decisions are being made based on financial needs and the inability of Network Rail to deliver.

Transport infrastructure projects are long term and should be managed thus.

Announcements are timed by Governments to maximise image and support.

 

This Government has been found out.

 

Its funny how they can build high speed lines in France and have electrification crews to wire them up. Same with the rest of Europe. The TGV high speed network is being expanded into Spain, Germany, Switzerland and Italy. TGVs already run from Paris to Brussels. Paris to Bordeaux has been opened in this last year. There's a far higher percentage of lines electrified on the Continent than here. If the Midland Mainline was on the other side of the Channel, it would have been wired up years ago.

 

---------- Post added 02-04-2018 at 08:40 ----------

 

Maybe that’s because we don’t have the infrastructure.

 

It’s alright saying more people travel in the south east - that’s because they have the transport links to do so.

 

We’re 30 something miles from Manchester but tell someone you’re working there and expect a sympathetic eye roll. We should be able to get there in half an hour every half hour.

The fact that we've got too many people up here who are happy with second best, and shrug their shoulders and say "It'll do" or "It's better than nothing" doesn't help. It's one of the pet hates. We've happily and meekly slotted into the role of being second class citizens, while the South East gets its fill.

 

---------- Post added 02-04-2018 at 08:44 ----------

 

Point noted.

 

Thank you for confirming that you dont have anything to back up your submissions. I am not prepared to waste any more time on you.

Thank you for confirming that you're a servile cap doffer.

Edited April 2, 2018 by pss60

[Annie Bynnol 612]

Having asked a specific question of the DfT about this time I can say that they may well have used the election purdah period to their advantage.

 

The Prime Minister, the Treasury and Chris Grayling knew about the cancellation many weeks before the Election was announced.

Purdah is no excuse for the failure to announce the cancellation.

 

In the NAO report:

 

" 3.8 The Department needed agreement from the Prime Minister and HM Treasury to cancel the Midland Main Line and Cardiff to Swansea sections. In March 2017 ministers agreed to cancel the Midland Main Line north of Kettering …".

[pss60 10]

The Prime Minister, the Treasury and Chris Grayling knew about the cancellation many weeks before the Election was announced.

Purdah is no excuse for the failure to announce the cancellation.

 

In the NAO report:

 

" 3.8 The Department needed agreement from the Prime Minister and HM Treasury to cancel the Midland Main Line and Cardiff to Swansea sections. In March 2017 ministers agreed to cancel the Midland Main Line north of Kettering …".

And that arrogant bunch of deceitful wide boys and girls were too frit to let us know before the General Election, so giving an extra reason to vote them out. They knew back in March that they were planning for a General Election, so must delay the announcement until it was out of the way, but the servile cap doffers up here will put up with anything.

Edited April 2, 2018 by pss60

[BigAl1 143]

Unfortunately South Yorkshire has been politically trapped between Conservative governments and Labour local councils for too many decades.

 

You might also argue that we have simply been badly served by our elected MPs and question what they have done and said on this subject.

 

Whilst many on this thread are making political points I would have expected the Labour Party to have done exactly the same when they were in power. Let's not forget how on student fees they ensured that the Browne report would not come out until after the election thus saving them from making any decisions that might have been unpopular and boy didn't the Tories walk into that one.

 

As for the decision then given the fiasco on the Great Western electrification then it is understandable albeit unfortunate that a decision to go ahead has been postponed. Whilst they have not said cancelled there are certainly signs that would suggest it is. However I am sure we can expect the Labour Party to promise to electrify the line (or to announce a committee to re-evaluate) but I wonder if they will be able to find the cash to deliver.

 

Yes we should be cynical look at the farce on the new runway at Heathrow and the fact that even if it does go ahead they still deny the need for a new terminal.

[pss60 10]

Unfortunately South Yorkshire has been politically trapped between Conservative governments and Labour local councils for too many decades.

 

You might also argue that we have simply been badly served by our elected MPs and question what they have done and said on this subject.

 

Whilst many on this thread are making political points I would have expected the Labour Party to have done exactly the same when they were in power. Let's not forget how on student fees they ensured that the Browne report would not come out until after the election thus saving them from making any decisions that might have been unpopular and boy didn't the Tories walk into that one.

 

As for the decision then given the fiasco on the Great Western electrification then it is understandable albeit unfortunate that a decision to go ahead has been postponed. Whilst they have not said cancelled there are certainly signs that would suggest it is. However I am sure we can expect the Labour Party to promise to electrify the line (or to announce a committee to re-evaluate) but I wonder if they will be able to find the cash to deliver.

 

Yes we should be cynical look at the farce on the new runway at Heathrow and the fact that even if it does go ahead they still deny the need for a new terminal.

 

Our elected MPs haven't had power for eight years and have only had it for 13 of the last 39 years - to be 13 out of 43 years by 2022.

 

We'd rather spend £40 billion on the EU divorce bill than inject it into our railways thanks to a useless referendum promised by Cameron out of political expediency. Funny how they can pluck the banknotes off the magic money tree when it comes to bankrolling London and the South East.

Edited April 2, 2018 by pss60

[BigAl1 143]

Of course they have power. It is wether they chose to use it and fight for their constituents or simply on autopilot simply oppose anything the other party proposes. Clive Betts highlighted the tram train issues that resulted in the a very critical National Audit report and other critical reports.

 

I don't recal the Labour Party pushing for electrification on the MML during their period in office. I do remember John Prescott on more than one occasion promising to renationalise the railways (can't remember if it was in their manifesto) but he quickly did a U turn once in office.

[nikki-red 308]

The bickering and personal comments end here.

 

 

Thank you.

[pss60 10]

Of course they have power. It is wether they chose to use it and fight for their constituents or simply on autopilot simply oppose anything the other party proposes. Clive Betts highlighted the tram train issues that resulted in the a very critical National Audit report and other critical reports.

 

I don't recal the Labour Party pushing for electrification on the MML during their period in office. I do remember John Prescott on more than one occasion promising to renationalise the railways (can't remember if it was in their manifesto) but he quickly did a U turn once in office.

You can only wield power in Government. In Opposition you can only protest, and you're in the position of leading a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Its up to the electorate to decide they're not prepared to remain as servile cap doffers and put up with this shafting any longer.

Edited April 2, 2018 by pss60

[Arthur Ritus 30]

 

In their figures, the Government have invented a class of train that is not even on the drawing board. A 125mph bi-mode carrying two days of diesel will have very poor acceleration and is unsuitable for the MML with its speed restriction

 

Isn't the class 800 bi-mode supposed to be filling that roll?

 

I know its been talked about before but just installing electrification either side of the stations for acceleration and regenerative braking with the diesel generators just maintaining speed between would surely be an economic compromise. The sections in between can be linked up as time goes on, basically how the national grid developed.

 

Although the most important thing to me is safe, reliable, frequent, economic, clean and comfortable travel whatever energy source.

I do find it difficult to accept the way the UK's administration can claim be so anti fossil fuel when there's opportunity to tax more or just pass a law making life more difficult and expensive for the citizens but when it comes to the same administration actively doing something themselves like railway electrification it seems to be a very different story.

 

I have to say though for someone who regularly breathes in lungfuls of the fumes on Penistone road, the trains being electrified isn't going to make me live any longer.