Are Calais Migrants OUR Problem?

[cuttsie 1,091]

8 hours ago, Anna B said:

If there was more equality in the world: enough food, peace, education, equality of opportunity etc,  I'm sure most people would be happy to stay in their home countries and build decent fulfilling lives. If we can work towards that, this problem would go away. 

 

Unfortunately we in the affluent West have created many of the problems that now beset foreign countries, going back centuries, by taking the wealth from other countries for our own benefit leaving them poor. And we continue to add to the problems, living in a divided world of have and have-nots, where well intentioned help can often be misdirected and rife with corruption. 

 

Re-balance the world and we would do away with a lot of the world's problems.    

Its called Communism Anna , 

Its a brilliant idea and has been tried over and over again , In the end Animal farm steps in , those at the top get greedy , Look at Russia and China with all the now billionaires , people at the top of Government who stole all the assets of the people .

Only Cuba has tried to stick to its principals and they are ostracised by the West .

If only the human race was not made up of these greedy people it would work .

[harvey19 541]

If all the people leaving their own countries stayed and improved their countries maybe that would be better than the present situation.

Let us not forget the dreadful poverty,  living  and work conditions in our country before WW1.

Vision,  hard work and the will to improve things resulted in the quality of life we have today.

[hackey lad 3,976]

The three posts above are spot on .  👍

[alchresearch 214]

And a few days after all the stories, the discussions, the hand wringing, the media move onto other matters  - even though its still happening.

[Anna B 1,414]

3 hours ago, cuttsie said:

Its called Communism Anna , 

Its a brilliant idea and has been tried over and over again , In the end Animal farm steps in , those at the top get greedy , Look at Russia and China with all the now billionaires , people at the top of Government who stole all the assets of the people .

Only Cuba has tried to stick to its principals and they are ostracised by the West .

If only the human race was not made up of these greedy people it would work .

I am in favour of Responsible Capitalism, not communism as we know it.

What we have at the moment is Irresponsible Capitalism, otherwise Known as 'Free Market Capitalism' as brought in by Margaret Thatcher in the 80's and followed by governments ever since.

 

It is a ruthless cut throat 'winner takes all, devil take the hindmost' form of Capitalism. All the safeguards and many of the regulations are removed, or not adhered to, leading to rampant profteering. It becomes Global Neoliberalism.

Check it out.

 

Thatcher said we would all benefit because it would increase competition, but as time goes on it sqeezes out the competition by takeovers and assett striping, so competition grows less not more as mega corporations arise. 

The Mega Corporations are the winners, everyone else are the losers. The world is considerably richer but the wealth does not 'trickle down' via taxes etc leading to a bigger gap between rich and poor. That is what we are seeing now.

 

Communism is a dirty word in the West, and doesn't even merit consideration. Fair enough. 

However read 'Fully Automated Luxury Communism'  by Aaron Bastani for a different take on it. Consider every word in that title. They're all important. We are living through an upheaval as great and life changing as the Industrial Revolution. It needs to be handled in new ways. 

 

The Industrial Revolution improved everyone's life eventually. This is different. We are moving into a strange new world we haven't experienced before. Old rules no longer apply. If handled correctly it can also benefit everyone, but that requires a reset of thinking that turns its back on thousands of years of the battle for survival, competition for resources and dog eat dog Empire building and Colonialism. They're no longer necessary.

 

Now (and in the future) we have the resources and technology to change everything if we can make it about co-operation and sharing rather than competition. We have come to see the need for world wide co-operation to tackle Climate change for our survival; We are aware that we have to work together world wide to tackle the pandemic. That's not communism, it's the only way for the solutions to work.

 

This is the same. And just as important for our survival. Constant rampant consumerism is detrimental to the world but it is the very thing which fires big business and Capitalism. In its present form it is not sustainable and doing us harm. So we have to find new ways of doing things and think in new ways that will benefit everyone. Do that, and a good future for everyone is within our grasp.

 

It's complicated, so read the book to see how it could work: Fully Automated Luxury Communism. 

Problems like the migrant crisis would be solved.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Anna B

[ECCOnoob 1,043]

Blah blah....    all Thatchers fault

blah blah.... neoliberalism..   

blah blah

 

Good grief Anna.  You really do have a warped vision of the source of the problems which in reality have been around for millenia. Problems cannot be dumbed down into only existing post 1979 and the meteoric rise of that nasty evil capitalism and privatisation just because it suits your agenda. That's an absolutely ridiculous position.

 

Why is it on every single subject no matter how disconnected you seem to find any excuse to raise some completely tenuous link to the the "Horrors" of thatcherism and capitalism and neoliberalism.

 

Your posts about how the world should be is nothing but childish fantasy, desperately seeking some single point of failure or blame when the problems are far more deep-rooted.

 

I've explained multiple times that problems will always come back to inbuilt basic primal human instinct to constantly dominate over another. That is not going to change no matter what government you bring in or global policies.

 

Caring sharing equality claptrap only goes so far but when it really hits the fan I can guarantee that every single one of us or resort back to our survival Instinct. We will always put number one and our families ahead of anything else.  Scale that up across territories and Nations and then transcontinental groups of allies and where do we end up. Exactly the same place we have been in many many times previously since the dawn of time. 

 

What exactly do you think is happening with these economic migrants?   Thinking of number one of course.  They want to improve their lives, they want to drive themselves forward, so they do something very drastic very dangerous but in their eyes with a fantastic reward at the end. 

 

Better life and improvement for themselves is all they care about. Forget the home country,  forget what they are leaving behind,  forget supporting their fellow neighbours, forget staying to fight the good fight, forget challenging their unfair or or acceptable regimes, forget trying to develop and bring changes.... 

 

Caring, sharing, looking out for others? Don't think so.     I can guarantee every one of us would do exactly the same thing if we were not already in the privileged, civilised, westernised society we have.  However the moment that slips or we fall behind another nation or we have competitors  or we lose our power status you watch how quickly things will change.

Edited November 29, 2021 by ECCOnoob

[crookesey 635]

The USA was colonised mainly by folk who were dissatisfied with the life style in their home countries. The so called wealthy nations have made much of refugee immigration, none of us will be alive to see what a few generations of refugee descendants will have made of their lives, however we can look back and do similar, I worked for a Jewish family firm who’s descendants escaped from Tsarist Russia by the skin of their teeth, the family ended up employing hundreds of folk.

[ab6262 202]

1 hour ago, Anna B said:

I am in favour of Responsible Capitalism, not communism as we know it.

What we have at the moment is Irresponsible Capitalism, otherwise Known as 'Free Market Capitalism' as brought in by Margaret Thatcher in the 80's and followed by governments ever since.

 

It is a ruthless cut throat 'winner takes all, devil take the hindmost' form of Capitalism. All the safeguards and many of the regulations are removed, or not adhered to, leading to rampant profteering. It becomes Global Neoliberalism.

Check it out.

 

Thatcher said we would all benefit because it would increase competition, but as time goes on it sqeezes out the competition by takeovers and assett striping, so competition grows less not more as mega corporations arise. 

The Mega Corporations are the winners, everyone else are the losers. The world is considerably richer but the wealth does not 'trickle down' via taxes etc leading to a bigger gap between rich and poor. That is what we are seeing now.

 

Communism is a dirty word in the West, and doesn't even merit consideration. Fair enough. 

However read 'Fully Automated Luxury Communism'  by Aaron Bastani for a different take on it. Consider every word in that title. They're all important. We are living through an upheaval as great and life changing as the Industrial Revolution. It needs to be handled in new ways. 

 

The Industrial Revolution improved everyone's life eventually. This is different. We are moving into a strange new world we haven't experienced before. Old rules no longer apply. If handled correctly it can also benefit everyone, but that requires a reset of thinking that turns its back on thousands of years of the battle for survival, competition for resources and dog eat dog Empire building and Colonialism. They're no longer necessary.

 

Now (and in the future) we have the resources and technology to change everything if we can make it about co-operation and sharing rather than competition. We have come to see the need for world wide co-operation to tackle Climate change for our survival; We are aware that we have to work together world wide to tackle the pandemic. That's not communism, it's the only way for the solutions to work.

 

This is the same. And just as important for our survival. Constant rampant consumerism is detrimental to the world but it is the very thing which fires big business and Capitalism. In its present form it is not sustainable and doing us harm. So we have to find new ways of doing things and think in new ways that will benefit everyone. Do that, and a good future for everyone is within our grasp.

 

It's complicated, so read the book to see how it could work: Fully Automated Luxury Communism. 

Problems like the migrant crisis would be solved.  

 

 

responsible capitalism??? there is no such thing, humans by nature are greedy for the most part we all look after no1 to think otherwise is a little naive ? dont you think.

there are many many very kind and idealistic people like yourself that wants to see equality, sorry it will never happen. 

 

 

 

 

[Anna B 1,414]

You are all so cynical, nothing can change, it'll never happen, people are selfish etc etc...

I was lucky enough to grow up in the fifties. After the horrors of war people were eager to make the world a better place. And they did.

 

We had a period of what was arguably the most egaltarian period in British history. Taxation provided free health care, (from the cradle to the grave) free dental care, free higher education giving everone the opportunity to better themselves, decent housing at a reasonable price/ rent, family allowance, improvement in working conditions, (remember the subsidied works canteens, day trips, Christmas bonus, etc) better pay, (and a decent safety net if you were out of work,) above all a strong sense of community, looking out for each other. Most of all people were optimistic and hopeful, and had peace of mind knowing there was a safety net under them for difficult times. 

 

But how the Establishment/Tories hated it, and it didn't take them long to agitate for change back to the old status quo, where they were the masters and we knew our place. The showdown was the miner's strike in the 80's. Literally 'a fight to find who ran the country.' The masters or the miners. The masters won and brought back all the measures we see now to keep the little man down.

 

[ECCOnoob 1,043]

28 minutes ago, Anna B said:

You are all so cynical, nothing can change, it'll never happen, people are selfish etc etc...

I was lucky enough to grow up in the fifties. After the horrors of war people were eager to make the world a better place. And they did.

 

We had a period of what was arguably the most egaltarian period in British history. Taxation provided free health care, (from the cradle to the grave) free dental care, free higher education giving everone the opportunity to better themselves, decent housing at a reasonable price/ rent, family allowance, improvement in working conditions, (remember the subsidied works canteens, day trips, Christmas bonus, etc) better pay, (and a decent safety net if you were out of work,) above all a strong sense of community, looking out for each other. Most of all people were optimistic and hopeful, and had peace of mind knowing there was a safety net under them for difficult times. 

 

But how the Establishment/Tories hated it, and it didn't take them long to agitate for change back to the old status quo, where they were the masters and we knew our place. The showdown was the miner's strike in the 80's. Literally 'a fight to find who ran the country.' The masters or the miners. The masters won and brought back all the measures we see now to keep the little man down.

 

Yes take off the Rose tinted spectacles and we also remember the concrete block council house slums, the working hours, the working conditions, the lack of health and safety, the blatent sexism, the racism, xenophobia, the homophobia, the union bully boys, overbearing state control, useless public services and dinosaur nationalised industries raping the taxpayer of their already dwindling monies....

 

Not all of us have such fond nostalgia. We read between the lines. We see the other side. We face up the realities that it was a lot all so wonderful back in the good old days.

 

We don't all show complete distrust to anything related to self preservation, power and wealth and success as something that should somehow be by continually frowned up, criticised or rejected.

 

We don't treat economic migration as something that should be objected to and restricted nor do we think corporate and employment globalisation is somehow the cause of all problems since the 1980s.

 

Your vision and my vision is never ever going to agree let's face it.  This is certainly not the thread to be bringing all the same tired arguments up again.  We are starting to drift way off topic here.

Edited November 29, 2021 by ECCOnoob

[ab6262 202]

28 minutes ago, Anna B said:

You are all so cynical, nothing can change, it'll never happen, people are selfish etc etc...

I was lucky enough to grow up in the fifties. After the horrors of war people were eager to make the world a better place. And they did.

 

We had a period of what was arguably the most egaltarian period in British history. Taxation provided free health care, (from the cradle to the grave) free dental care, free higher education giving everone the opportunity to better themselves, decent housing at a reasonable price/ rent, family allowance, improvement in working conditions, (remember the subsidied works canteens, day trips, Christmas bonus, etc) better pay, (and a decent safety net if you were out of work,) above all a strong sense of community, looking out for each other. Most of all people were optimistic and hopeful, and had peace of mind knowing there was a safety net under them for difficult times. 

 

But how the Establishment/Tories hated it, and it didn't take them long to agitate for change back to the old status quo, where they were the masters and we knew our place. The showdown was the miner's strike in the 80's. Literally 'a fight to find who ran the country.' The masters or the miners. The masters won and brought back all the measures we see now to keep the little man down.

 

Thank God common sense prevailed and as for the miners strike ha ha are you for real??? the miners were greedy they followed a narcissist who was only out for his own glory?  adapt or die.

 

[tinfoilhat 11]

4 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

Yes take off the Rose tinted spectacles and we also remember the concrete block council house slums, the working hours, the working conditions, the lack of health and safety, the blatent sexism, the racism, xenophobia, the homophobia, the union bully boys, overbearing state control, useless public services and dinosaur nationalised industries raping the taxpayer of their already dwindling monies....

 

Not all of us have such fond nostalgia. We read between the lines. We see the other side. We face up the realities that it was a lot all so wonderful back in the good old days.

 

We don't all show complete distrust to anything related to self preservation, power and wealth and success as something that should somehow be by continually frowned up, criticised or rejected.

 

We don't treat economic migration as something that should be objected to and restricted nor do we think corporate and employment globalisation is somehow the cause of all problems since the 1980s.

 

Your vision and my vision is never ever going to agree let's face it.  This is certainly not the thread to be bringing all the same tired arguments up again.  We are starting to drift way off topic here.

70% of people coming over on boats are given asylum. The economic migrants thing is largely horse****.