What is equality to you?

[Halibut 12]

9 hours ago, leviathan13 said:

Why am i?

 

You're saying that i am privileged simply due to me sex and colour. I'm saying that privilege is dependent on a number of factors.

 

Am I more privileged than David Lammy, Barack Obama, Serena/Venus Williams and Theresa May?

Because inequality is a broad brush thing; it's about the big picture rather than the fine detail, hence my weather (fine detail, e.g. Lammy and Obama doing well) versus climate ( big picture e.g. 'non-white names' being less likely to get called for interview, blacks being four times more likely to get sectioned) analogy.

 

Specifically, with regard to Lammy and Obama and your 'am I more privileged' question, perhaps not, but are you more privileged than the average black guy on the street? Almost certainly.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Halibut

[Cyclone 10]

12 hours ago, WiseOwl182 said:

It is hypocrisy. You are making assumptions about strangers based on their race. If you were doing the same about black people, then there'd be cries of "racist" from people like you. It's called hypocrisy. Deny it as many times as you like, we can go on forever 

 

I am doing the same about black people, I assume that generally they are disadvantaged in the UK compared to white people.  I assume that they've experienced considerably higher levels of racism than the "me too" white men who bleat about once or twice in their lives having had a racist comment directed at them.

These are perfectly reasonable assumptions to make.

11 hours ago, woodview said:

Not getting an interview because of an ethnic name is wrong and illegal. Laws exist to crack down on practices such as that.

I struggle to see how you can have a situation where there is 'equal capabilities' , the occurance would be tiny. Normally more relevant criteria separate candidates.

The fact is that it happens though.  I mentioned it to you and you totally ignored it.  It's also true of being female in some professions, send in my CV with a female name on it and my chance of interview drops considerably...

And whilst that is illegal, it's also impossible to prove it happened and it's not even deliberate racism or sexism.  It's a subconscious bias amongst the people making the selection and the organisation.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Cyclone

[Cyclone 10]

9 hours ago, leviathan13 said:

This is the paradoxical mindset of the left (of which i used to identify with).

 

The 'West' as we know it, have to be seen to be welcoming of all races/religions/genders/lifestyles because we are the saviours of the world. So, by that mindset, we have to be open and tolerent. However, the moment you mention other countries and cultures, you're shouted down. But why?

 

We have to be tolerent of people coming from abroad and afford them equality. Yet, if i use the argument that i should be afforded the same courtesy if i go to their country, it's a joke.

 

Are the left saying that those countries are less accepting and more barbaric and they should be allowed to be so?

There's discrimination against white, lower, working class men... but that doesn't matter because there's no quota for them in positions of power

You're ignored when you mention inequality elsewhere because the only point to mentioning it is to justify increasing inequality here.  That or to distract from the issue at hand.

We can't control equality elsewhere, we can control it here and two wrongs don't make a right, so inequalities that exist in other countries are not relevant.

8 hours ago, WiseOwl182 said:

What about for a white male whose only reason for not getting the job was for being a white male? Is that equality?

That's not positive action is it.

The white male who is in every other way equal with another not white male candidate.

The organisation realises that it has previously recruited with bias and has an excessive representation of white males, so given no other way of deciding between equal candidates, it takes the not white male in order to help balance it's representation.

I can't see how anyone could argue with that.  But you will of course.

8 hours ago, leviathan13 said:

Yet, you have't answered such a simple, childish question.

 

Who is more foolish - the fool, or the fool who follows him?

 

The fact that you cannot offer an answer to a simple question destroys, in my mind, the idea of equality.

 

There can be no such thing because each individual on this planet is different.

And we're back to the familiar refrain that we're not all equal.

That has been answered multiple times.  Equality of opportunity is the goal.  Not some bizarre idea where we are all literally capable of exactly the same things.

[willman 10]

17 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

 

I am doing the same about black people, I assume that generally they are disadvantaged in the UK compared to white people.  I assume that they've experienced considerably higher levels of racism than the "me too" white men who bleat about once or twice in their lives having had a racist comment directed at them.

These are perfectly reasonable assumptions to make.

The fact is that it happens though.  I mentioned it to you and you totally ignored it.  It's also true of being female in some professions, send in my CV with a female name on it and my chance of interview drops considerably...

And whilst that is illegal, it's also impossible to prove it happened and it's not even deliberate racism or sexism.  It's a subconscious bias amongst the people making the selection and the organisation.

Totally agree, thats also very true in some companies with more foreign sounding names on the cv i'm afraid to say - and also with ages. When i was last unemployed i chose not to display my DOB on my CV(the agencies didn't amend it either)and had several more interviews offered than i anticipated, at the interview it was obvious i was beyond the age remit for the job, even with the likes of Sky call centres. So just being a male with an Anglo Saxon name probably got me the interviews.

[neworderishere 0]

1 hour ago, willman said:

Totally agree, thats also very true in some companies with more foreign sounding names on the cv i'm afraid to say - and also with ages. When i was last unemployed i chose not to display my DOB on my CV(the agencies didn't amend it either)and had several more interviews offered than i anticipated, at the interview it was obvious i was beyond the age remit for the job, even with the likes of Sky call centres. So just being a male with an Anglo Saxon name probably got me the interviews.

lets face facts ? Humans rely on instinct and their own gut feeling on who they like or want to work with rightly or wrongly? its a human trait we make judgement s.

i probably made some judgement s in the past whilst interviewing for positions, i made those on what i knew was the criteria to fit in with the workforce. is that so wrong?

[willman 10]

4 minutes ago, neworderishere said:

lets face facts ? Humans rely on instinct and their own gut feeling on who they like or want to work with rightly or wrongly? its a human trait we make judgement s.

i probably made some judgement s in the past whilst interviewing for positions, i made those on what i knew was the criteria to fit in with the workforce. is that so wrong?

No it isn't for  - but for others on the recieving end then perhaps they feel it is wrong. It's also an example of where white/males could have had an intrinsic element of advantage in the past. 

[neworderishere 0]

Just now, willman said:

No it isn't for  - but for others on the recieving end then perhaps they feel it is wrong. It's also an example of where white/males could have had an intrinsic element of advantage in the past. 

when i said Humans i meant of all colours, so a black or Asian interviewer could make the same judgement to suit their situation? its a matter of numbers no more ! in african or other areas of the world where people are predominately black/coloured they have the advantage of judgement, in the west where whites at the moment are the majority we make the judgement s.

[SnailyBoy 10]

16 minutes ago, neworderishere said:

lets face facts ? Humans rely on instinct and their own gut feeling on who they like or want to work with rightly or wrongly? its a human trait we make judgement s.

i probably made some judgement s in the past whilst interviewing for positions, i made those on what i knew was the criteria to fit in with the workforce. is that so wrong?

What's your 'gut feeling' on who you like or want to work with?

[Cyclone 10]

18 minutes ago, neworderishere said:

lets face facts ? Humans rely on instinct and their own gut feeling on who they like or want to work with rightly or wrongly? its a human trait we make judgement s.

i probably made some judgement s in the past whilst interviewing for positions, i made those on what i knew was the criteria to fit in with the workforce. is that so wrong?

If you have an unconscious bias against women, BAME, none hetero people, then yes, it's wrong.

Equality is in the news today

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47462633

 

The met deny racism, as they have done for a number of decades...  They often change their mind quite some time after any given example and accept that it was racist and promise to change their culture.

 

And also a bit of sexism, but this time the institution has immediately taken action.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47478537

 

[neworderishere 0]

1 minute ago, SnailyBoy said:

What's your 'gut feeling' on who you like or want to work with?

Me? i work with all types, colours and race, some i like some i dont, but if they make me money i dont care.  my work and social life takes me to various countries.

 

[neworderishere 0]

3 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

If you have an unconscious bias against women, BAME, none hetero people, then yes, it's wrong.

Equality is in the news today

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47462633

 

The met deny racism, as they have done for a number of decades...  They often change their mind quite some time after any given example and accept that it was racist and promise to change their culture.

 

And also a bit of sexism, but this time the institution has immediately taken action.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47478537

 

if i am interviewing for a warehouse position which i have in the past, i dont want a woman as it involves heavy lifting, i dont want  BAME as they are likely to make things difficult with some preferences, i do want an eastern european who has a good work ethic and can graft.

On the other hand if i want an articulate  person who is service led for a telephone or front facing role then i would look to the BAME or women to fill that role.

as for non hetro it depends on how flamboyant and overt they are!

[SnailyBoy 10]

2 minutes ago, neworderishere said:

if i am interviewing for a warehouse position which i have in the past, i dont want a woman as it involves heavy lifting, i dont want  BAME as they are likely to make things difficult with some preferences, i do want an eastern european who has a good work ethic and can graft.

On the other hand if i want an articulate  person who is service led for a telephone or front facing role then i would look to the BAME or women to fill that role.

as for non hetro it depends on how flamboyant and overt they are!

Oh dear, and you were doing so well.

 

3/10 for effort