What is equality to you?

[Cyclone 10]

11 hours ago, WiseOwl182 said:

How do you know? I have.

Because straight white men are the least discriminated against and the most advantaged group in our society, as you well know.

[Cyclone 10]

11 hours ago, Waldo said:

On average, yes. I would think the average white person is better off than most non-whites. In many instances though, that's not going to be the case.

 

If we accept that non-white people experience more general predjudice in life; that of course is wrong and is something that needs to be addressed. However, I don't see how that in itself justifies letting those people jump the job queue. Maybe there is no logical rational for it; it's just out of some sense of collective guilt or something that white people feel?

 

On the other hand, I would have no problem if help was dished out to people based on individual need (rather than on skin colour, or existence of dangly bits between the legs, or whatever). If based on individual need, some white people would also qualify for help, and some non-white people, would not quality. Not that it matters what I do or don't have a problem with; it's all academic, as I'm not in any position to dictate policy.

 

I also find the term 'white privilege' to be almost a racial slur in itself. It almost suggests that each individual white person is somehow innately racist or guilty of supressing non-white people. What specifically am I doing to merit such a slur?

 

Yeah, I imagine people get defensive because they like to feel they themselves are the architects of their own success; and the fact of the playing field being slanted in their favour, would challange that notion. Maybe I'm getting defensive? I don't know, kinda feels like I'm just trying to articulate where I see injustice.

You're still missing the point about what positive action is.  It isn't about "jumping the job queue" in the slightest.  When applied correctly it can be used to determine an outcome between otherwise equally qualified and suitable candidates.

 

If you think white privilege is a racist slur then I'm afraid you're being a snowflake.  And the feeling you describe is exactly the defensiveness I mentioned.  Having privilege is nothing to do with having suppressed anyone else, it's simply an acknowledgement of the advantages you've had.  Wealth privilege for example doesn't mean that you made or kept other people poor, it's just an advantage that you had through who your parents were (in that case).

 

We'd all like to think that we are where we are through hard work and dedication.  But it's not really true.  Some hard work and dedication might have been involved, but a massive dose of luck was key.  The luck of being born in the UK, to being born healthy (health privilege), for some to having wealthy parents, to others having parents who valued education, for many of us being white, for 50% of us being male and so on and so on.  Our success (whatever it is) is built on our background and had we had a harder start to life then the same level of hard work and determination would not have got us to wherever we are today.

[Waldo 96]

Yeah, I feel 'snowflake' is also a derogatory term directed exclusively at white people, even the name itself suggests white. As I understand it, a snowflake is someone who objects to what they consider an injustice, that is relatively minor in contrast to the injustices other people have to endure. If that's what snowflake means, then yes, I am doing exactly that, in pointing out I feel 'white privilege' is something of a racial slur.

 

It is a very minor thing of course, but that does not make it right to berate white people; any more than it is to berate non-white people. If people want to ridicule me (not suggesting anyone has) because I feel the term 'white privilege' is somewhat of a slur, feel free.

 

Of course, by objecting to the term itself, I am not denying that the thing described by 'white privilege' exists, or excusing (some) white people's role in creating such a condition in the first place. I am merely applying the same standard to all people, that we all deserve to be treat as individuals and not wholesale tarred by the same brush according to our race.

 

Anyhow, apologies, I seem to be getting off track.

 

If I seem to be missing the point regarding positive action, it's perhaps because I've not applied my attention to it, as yet.

 

Your last paragraph in post #242 Cyclone, I completely agree with.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Waldo

[Branyy 10]

I also have an issue with "privilege" label. I wouldn't say I'm offended, I just don't think the term is used correctly. You see,  when I hear "privilege" I imagine some granted special status. I believe that's the definition right?

I accept that some of these "privileges" might be somehow granted. But special? No. They're normal. Being born in UK, to average family, being healthy and having education - that's all normal, not special. Not being discriminated also isn't  special. Of course, some of us are not lucky enough to have that - that's sad disadvantage, we should address it and help as possible. But not by throwing obstacles at all the other people.

[SnailyBoy 10]

18 minutes ago, Branyy said:

I also have an issue with "privilege" label. I wouldn't say I'm offended, I just don't think the term is used correctly. You see,  when I hear "privilege" I imagine some granted special status. I believe that's the definition right?

I accept that some of these "privileges" might be somehow granted. But special? No. They're normal. Being born in UK, to average family, being healthy and having education - that's all normal, not special. Not being discriminated also isn't  special. Of course, some of us are not lucky enough to have that - that's sad disadvantage, we should address it and help as possible. But not by throwing obstacles at all the other people.

Try looking at it from the point of view from those who don't have what you have.

 

Now can you see how it's a privilege?

[Branyy 10]

4 minutes ago, SnailyBoy said:

Try looking at it from the point of view from those who don't have what you have.

 

Now can you see how it's a privilege?

Nope. I'd see that I have a handicap (at most).

Edited March 1, 2019 by Branyy

[SnailyBoy 10]

2 minutes ago, Branyy said:

Nope. I'd see that I have a handicap.

I was speaking in general terms, the same as you were in post #244

[Branyy 10]

3 minutes ago, SnailyBoy said:

I was speaking in general terms, the same as you were in post #244

Sure, my reply was also supposed to be general. I simply don't think that we should project disadvantages/handicaps of individuals as privilege of others.

[SnailyBoy 10]

15 minutes ago, Branyy said:

Sure, my reply was also supposed to be general. I simply don't think that we should project disadvantages/handicaps of individuals as privilege of others.

I think you're getting hung up on the word 'privilege'.

 

How about you replace it with 'advantage'? You already suggested that being discriminated against is a disadvantage, therefore, if you're looking at it from that point of view, not being discriminated against is an advantage, yes?

Edited March 1, 2019 by SnailyBoy

[Branyy 10]

12 minutes ago, SnailyBoy said:

I think you're getting hung up on the word 'privilege'.

 

How about you replace it with 'advantage'? You already suggested that being discriminated against is a disadvantage, therefore, if you're looking at it from that point of view, not being discriminated against is an advantage, yes?

Yes, I agree. Advantage is a relative term and I wouldn't object using it. But as I said, I dislike privilege because it implies special treatment (which is not there). Perhaps I'm just being silly and focusing on problems of semantics but it seems that using the word privilege creates wrong implications in understanding the issues.

[SnailyBoy 10]

7 minutes ago, Branyy said:

Yes, I agree. Advantage is a relative term and I wouldn't object using it. But as I said, I dislike privilege because it implies special treatment (which is not there). Perhaps I'm just being silly and focusing on problems of semantics but it seems that using the word privilege creates wrong implications in understanding the issues.

Well if you look at the definition of 'privilege', advantage is there.

 

So I guess it is semantics.

[WiseOwl182 10]

8 hours ago, Cyclone said:

Because straight white men are the least discriminated against and the most advantaged group in our society, as you well know.

Are you deliberately being awkward? You don't know for sure that he's never being discriminated against. As I said l, I'm a white male and I have been verbally racially abused in the past, so if you made the same assumption about me, you'd have been wrong. You can't assume to know what other people have been through based on a broad assumption of which categories you feel are more advantaged.