What is equality to you?

[bottletree 10]

I'm all for equal pay and rights. Just waiting fro the long long queue of women wanting to join the front line of the armed forces, working down in the sewers and laying those bricks for all the houses that need building.

[ECCOnoob 1,050]

The following is from the BBC website:

 

"Ms Gracie told Radio 4's Woman's Hour the BBC had offered to raise her annual salary to £180,000, but she did not see that as a solution and there would still have been "a big gap between myself and my male peers".

 

Asked whether those male workers should receive a pay cut, Ms Gracie said: "I believe in public service broadcasting and I do think salaries at the top are unacceptably high... but I don't have the information to say this needs to happen or that should happen."

 

She added: "I could not go back to China and collude knowingly in what I consider to be unlawful pay discrimination. I could not do it, nor could I stay silent and watch the BBC perpetuate a failing pay structure by discriminating against women."

 

If she's a senior correspondent, why shouldn't she have pay parity with senior US correspondent / Editor, Jon Sopel, she's doing the same job, just in another part of the world & I'm guessing being the BBC's China Editor, her language skills will be far greater than Sopels?

 

Similarly, why doesn't Jeremy Bowen have parity with Sopel for reporting from some of the most dangerous places on the planet?

 

The difficulty with all this saga is that without knowing any specific details of the levels of experience, job roles, responsibilities, qualificaitons, other broadcasting, amount of airtime etc between specific people involved nobody can judge whether there is deliberate and actionable inequality or not.

 

Ms Gracie has made big noises about this all being "illegal" but is it? Whilst the world "salary" is used and would give the impression that these stars are paid employees - do we actually know that they are? If there is some sort of pay structure do we know whether the complainants are eligible for increase. Do they actually have the skills, experience or years required. If yes, then why wouldn't they raise grievance with HR just like any other salaried employee would be able to do.

 

They could be freelance journalists/performers/actors/presenters who have a contract negotiated by an agent. In that cirucmstances legallity is far more difficult. After all, just like any other self employed person, they will get paid whatever someone is willing to pay them based on how much they think they are worth. Obviously that is boosted by the negotiation skills of said talent's agent.

 

I am not for one second saying that this issue isnt important and shouldn't be brought out to the public, but there is huge areas of detail missing.

 

Not that that will stop the press from making their own judgment and conviction as they see fit. Im sure the Daily Mail will be wetting themselves at the thought of a scandal that could bring down the BBC.

Edited January 8, 2018 by ECCOnoob

[Michael_W 11]

In the workplace it should be along the lines of, do the same job, have the same skillset, do the same hours, have the same dedication and attitude, then there should be no arguments.

Some companies now give pay rises based on merit, so regardless of your gender or ethnicity etc, that merit award is dependant on your bosses/companies measurement of your performance.

[Mister M 1,625]

No such thing as equality i am afraid,the elite will always be the winners while the rest of us will be the losers.Its not what you know its who you know in this world,you just have to try and do the best you can.

 

Whilst I agree with you, I don't think it's a complete lost cause.

Equality covers a wide area, not just pay differentials between men and women.

Even getting issues such as equality between different economic groups is something to be welcomed.

[El Cid 220]

In the workplace it should be along the lines of, do the same job, have the same skillset, do the same hours, have the same dedication and attitude, then there should be no arguments.

 

Some companies now give pay rises based on merit, so regardless of your gender or ethnicity etc, that merit award is dependant on your bosses/companies measurement of your performance.

 

In the first paragraph you are saying job should be equal; but then you go on to say people should be paid extra if they out perform others!

 

All this equality is restricting employers from rewarding good performance, we are all different.

I like to think of myself as a model employee, yet I get zero monetary reward for it, because we are all equal. We are not all equal.

 

I used to get paid more than my follow employee that works in the same vehicle, then they got equal pay, then they were awarded 10p an hour more, recently I was regraded and I am now paid 80p more than my colleague.

 

What next, the unions are pushing for equality!

[Supertramp 10]

The following is from the BBC website:

 

"Ms Gracie told Radio 4's Woman's Hour the BBC had offered to raise her annual salary to £180,000, but she did not see that as a solution and there would still have been "a big gap between myself and my male peers".

 

Asked whether those male workers should receive a pay cut, Ms Gracie said: "I believe in public service broadcasting and I do think salaries at the top are unacceptably high... but I don't have the information to say this needs to happen or that should happen."

 

She added: "I could not go back to China and collude knowingly in what I consider to be unlawful pay discrimination. I could not do it, nor could I stay silent and watch the BBC perpetuate a failing pay structure by discriminating against women."

 

If she's a senior correspondent, why shouldn't she have pay parity with senior US correspondent / Editor, Jon Sopel, she's doing the same job, just in another part of the world & I'm guessing being the BBC's China Editor, her language skills will be far greater than Sopels?

 

Similarly, why doesn't Jeremy Bowen have parity with Sopel for reporting from some of the most dangerous places on the planet?

 

So she wants Jeremy Bowen and Jon Solely to get a pay cut? It's a very bizarre story in my opinion.

 

And out of the three Jeremy Bowen should be the highest paid.

[tinfoilhat 11]

I wonder how much the senior correspondent for Africa gets? And the other areas? More or less than China - be they male or female?

 

There are some huge inequalities in bbc pay structure, no doubt at all. Then there are other cases where one person thinks their job is as important as someone else's job. It's not necessarily the case.

[ricgem2002 11]

I'm all for equal pay and rights. Just waiting fro the long long queue of women wanting to join the front line of the armed forces, working down in the sewers and laying those bricks for all the houses that need building.

where you been hiding they been doing these jobs for years now:roll: let me guess you come from the old school about women should be in the home being a housewife/mother and not in the workplace:suspect: whenever topics like this come up it allways gets me why some men think its ok for the women to be payed less than their male counterparts doing the same job. i can imagine their wifes reaction when she tells hubby that she not getting the same money as fred bloggs and he replies i know love its because thar a woman

[Cyclone 10]

But she hasn't drawn attention to any other way she isn't equal?

 

I can understand that a payrise 'cos she has an issue can seem insulting, it would to me, but surely take the money and continue with the battle.

 

I don't think they actually offered her a pay rise though, not from what I've read.

 

---------- Post added 09-01-2018 at 16:58 ----------

 

As some one who has worked in heavy industry as well as leisure and entertainment I am beginning to believe due to the recent debate , protests and demonstrations over the last year or so that I am a complete moron simply by being male.

Every time I pick up a news paper ,turn on the radio or watch the news on T.V. it seems as though my very gender is under attack due to the latest sexual misdeeds ,pay disparity or vocal abuse carried out by the heads of industry and entertainment on women.

Don't be ridiculous.

Looking for ways to make women equal isn't an attack on men.

 

When I worked in heavy industry would it have been fair if I had to do all the heavy lifting with all the risk of injury or danger involved while a college who was say less able to do the same job was on the same pay .

If the jobs weren't equal then nobody should argue for equal pay for them.

 

That situation can be reversed in many situations where the weaker sex or college can perform a job that many men who are used to manual work would find hard or impossible to perform ,in that case would it be fair for them to be paid the same rate of pay.

Why talk about the "weaker sex" and not just "weaker people". You realise that some women are stronger than some men? Stereotypes don't help.

 

All this recent gender debate fascinates me and I can see how upsetting it is for all concerned ,but is it new or as my mam used to say ,'' Thill never be equality ont shop floor as long as women have the babys''.

 

Not upsetting for me. I would fully support a female colleague doing the same job as me in demanding the same pay, all other things being equal.

 

---------- Post added 09-01-2018 at 17:02 ----------

 

In the first paragraph you are saying job should be equal; but then you go on to say people should be paid extra if they out perform others!

If one person is performing better, then whilst they might have the same job title, they're not doing the same job. I don't think that many people would argue against meritocracy, unless performing well is considered to be an inherent characteristic, like sex.

 

All this equality is restricting employers from rewarding good performance, we are all different.

I like to think of myself as a model employee, yet I get zero monetary reward for it, because we are all equal. We are not all equal.

That's not what equality means. Perhaps your employees just use it to avoid paying anyone more than they have to.

 

I used to get paid more than my follow employee that works in the same vehicle, then they got equal pay, then they were awarded 10p an hour more, recently I was regraded and I am now paid 80p more than my colleague.

 

What next, the unions are pushing for equality!

 

Performance related pay shouldn't be a target in the fight for equality IMO. But presumably performance is also used to select for promotion, which then comes with higher pay as well.

[willman 10]

I don't think they actually offered her a pay rise though, not from what I've read.

 

---------- Post added 09-01-2018 at 16:58 ----------

 

Don't be ridiculous.

Looking for ways to make women equal isn't an attack on men.

If the jobs weren't equal then nobody should argue for equal pay for them.

Why talk about the "weaker sex" and not just "weaker people". You realise that some women are stronger than some men? Stereotypes don't help.

 

Not upsetting for me. I would fully support a female colleague doing the same job as me in demanding the same pay, all other things being equal.

 

---------- Post added 09-01-2018 at 17:02 ----------

 

If one person is performing better, then whilst they might have the same job title, they're not doing the same job. I don't think that many people would argue against meritocracy, unless performing well is considered to be an inherent characteristic, like sex.

That's not what equality means. Perhaps your employees just use it to avoid paying anyone more than they have to.

 

Performance related pay shouldn't be a target in the fight for equality IMO. But presumably performance is also used to select for promotion, which then comes with higher pay as well.

 

In which you must have misread it they offered a payrise of 45k. Which she refused.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/carrie-gracie-bbc-gender-pay-gap-refuse-pay-rise-offer-collusion-unlawful-discrimination-men-women-a8148366.html

[Halibut 12]

In which you must have misread it they offered a payrise of 45k. Which she refused.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/carrie-gracie-bbc-gender-pay-gap-refuse-pay-rise-offer-collusion-unlawful-discrimination-men-women-a8148366.html

 

Good for her.

[the_bloke 17]

Coming up next; male employees no longer expect to be paid more over time in a role they have proved they are good at it in case they are paid more than the newly promoted woman next to them doing the same job badly

 

Edit: swap male/woman around in that statement as you wish.