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Are guarantees being eroded.

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I bought my Samsung washing machine because it came with a 5 year warranty. (It also got good reviews) Look around, some manufacturers offer better warranties than others.

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“(14) For the purposes of subsections (3)(b) and © and (4), goods which do not conform to the contract at any time within the period of six months beginning with the day on which the goods were delivered to the consumer must be taken not to have conformed to it on that day.”

 

In plain English: if you report a fault or that the product does not conform to contract in another way within the first 6 months then it is assumed that the product did not conform to contract on the day of sale. Therefore if a retailer disagrees they would need to provide evidence otherwise. After that it is assumed that it does conform to contract. If you were to take a retailer to court the burden of proof is on you as you are the one issuing court proceedings. Therefore you would need to prove it did not conform.

The burden of proof for not meeting the durability test is that it is now broken, before a reasonable person would expect it to be.

It's quite a low burden to meet. Just convince the magistrate that a reasonable person would expect X to last greater than Y.

 

Retailers do defend and win. I have seen this happen on other forums. Sorry but the consumer needs to provide more than saying it should last x amount – that is not evidence. After 6 months it is assumed an item does conform to contract. A consumer could have damaged it or it could be fair wear – some components you would expect to wear out due to their nature.

 

Yes, things do wear out, of course.

But should you buy a £2000 TV which fails after a year, then any reasonable person would have expected it to last longer. That's it, breach of contract is established.

If you're in the 5 year mark, for a £400 TV, I'd expect a very different outcome of course, and there's a whole lot of grey area between, £1500 TV, 3 years in for example, could go either way (perhaps case law exists to offer more advice though).

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The burden of proof for not meeting the durability test is that it is now broken, before a reasonable person would expect it to be.

It's quite a low burden to meet. Just convince the magistrate that a reasonable person would expect X to last greater than Y.

 

Yes, things do wear out, of course.

But should you buy a £2000 TV which fails after a year, then any reasonable person would have expected it to last longer. That's it, breach of contract is established.

If you're in the 5 year mark, for a £400 TV, I'd expect a very different outcome of course, and there's a whole lot of grey area between, £1500 TV, 3 years in for example, could go either way (perhaps case law exists to offer more advice though).

 

What evidence, if any, would you take to court with you Cyclone?

 

Bear in mind a judge may have little to no knowledge of the workings of electrical items or any other items for that matter. Saying an item is faulty does not mean it is.

 

For example a PC does not power up, does that mean it is faulty? No it could be a static build up. Discharge the static and it works fine.

 

What about a washing machine that refuses to spin, does that mean it is faulty? No because the filter/sump could be blocked with a kiddies sock/bra wire/etc which means it can’t drain and therefore can’t spin.

 

The law doesn’t set out how to provide evidence however Which suggest an independent engineer’s report is a good idea if you need an objective opinion.

 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product

 

CAB also recommend, if you decide to take a company to court, that “It's important to:

• get an expert report if you think it'd help, eg with faulty goods (you'll need permission from the court first)”.

 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/small-claims/

 

Of course you may not need a report you might rely on other evidence such as correspondence between parties, photos, videos, witnesses or other evidence.

 

CAB states “set out your notes in date order, carefully explaining which documents you're using as evidence and what they prove”

 

And

 

“take along anything that you're using as evidence...”

 

The word evidence is used more than once for a reason.

So what would you do Cyclone, provide some form of evidence or not?

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I bought my Samsung washing machine because it came with a 5 year warranty. (It also got good reviews) Look around, some manufacturers offer better warranties than others.

 

Just check that it's not one of the models that were suffering collapsing drums. The alloy bracket that holds the drum in situ were failing due to corrosion, it happened to a friend's machine at less than 5 years old.

 

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Miele are a great make, but their washer dryers start at £1799 and go up £2799, Just a bt above my budget - If I was 28 again it might be worth it. I'm gong for the LG F4J8FH2W from John Lewis with the £140.00 5 year warrenty.

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What evidence, if any, would you take to court with you Cyclone?

 

Bear in mind a judge may have little to no knowledge of the workings of electrical items or any other items for that matter. Saying an item is faulty does not mean it is.

Are you asking me to provide details of a hypothetical fault so that I can then explain how someone could prove that the fault actually exists?

 

For example a PC does not power up, does that mean it is faulty? No it could be a static build up. Discharge the static and it works fine.

Errr, well, I've never heard of that one. And I work in IT, I even did a stint in the early years of helpdesk and hardware support.

 

What about a washing machine that refuses to spin, does that mean it is faulty? No because the filter/sump could be blocked with a kiddies sock/bra wire/etc which means it can’t drain and therefore can’t spin.

 

The law doesn’t set out how to provide evidence however Which suggest an independent engineer’s report is a good idea if you need an objective opinion.

Yes, that would be good evidence of course.

I never claimed that you wouldn't have to somehow prove that there was a fault. That's still true within the first 6 months.

 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product

 

CAB also recommend, if you decide to take a company to court, that “It's important to:

• get an expert report if you think it'd help, eg with faulty goods (you'll need permission from the court first)”.

 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/small-claims/

 

Of course you may not need a report you might rely on other evidence such as correspondence between parties, photos, videos, witnesses or other evidence.

 

CAB states “set out your notes in date order, carefully explaining which documents you're using as evidence and what they prove”

 

And

 

“take along anything that you're using as evidence...”

 

The word evidence is used more than once for a reason.

So what would you do Cyclone, provide some form of evidence or not?

 

You've set up a strawman there. I didn't claim that you wouldn't need evidence that the device is faulty.

What I said was that (assuming you can prove it is a fault) that durability is part of the contract and that the test is whether a "reasonable person" would expect greater durability. And that test depends on many things such as what the item is, how much it cost, etc...

 

---------- Post added 29-12-2017 at 10:14 ----------

 

The consumer doesn't have to prove that the device should last longer than X. That's the argument they make, based on the consumer law that you linked to. You don't appear to like that legislation anymore though...

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Are you asking me to provide details of a hypothetical fault so that I can then explain how someone could prove that the fault actually exists?

Errr, well, I've never heard of that one. And I work in IT, I even did a stint in the early years of helpdesk and hardware support.

Yes, that would be good evidence of course.

I never claimed that you wouldn't have to somehow prove that there was a fault. That's still true within the first 6 months.

 

You've set up a strawman there. I didn't claim that you wouldn't need evidence that the device is faulty.

What I said was that (assuming you can prove it is a fault) that durability is part of the contract and that the test is whether a "reasonable person" would expect greater durability. And that test depends on many things such as what the item is, how much it cost, etc...

 

---------- Post added 29-12-2017 at 10:14 ----------

 

The consumer doesn't have to prove that the device should last longer than X. That's the argument they make, based on the consumer law that you linked to. You don't appear to like that legislation anymore though...

 

Not sure what you mean I don't like it, you were the one who for example argued about burden of proof after 6 months - not me.

 

No strawman. You wrote

The burden of proof for not meeting the durability test is that it is now broken, before a reasonable person would expect it to be.

It's quite a low burden to meet. Just convince the magistrate that a reasonable person would expect X to last greater than Y.

 

You never said that you would provide evidence of a fault. You said in your last post "What I said was that (assuming you can prove it is a fault) that durability is part of the contract.." - except that you never did say that you would provide evidence of a fault in previous posts- you've only just added that after. You also wrote

 

If a reasonable person would expect a £2000 TV to last more than a year, then the consumer won't have to prove anything except that a reasonable person would expect that.

 

So you said they won't have to prove anything expect what a reasonable person would expect a TV to last more than a year, not they won't have to prove anything bar a fault and the fact that a reasonable person would expect it to last more than a year. So no strawman needed.

 

I also worked on in IT, on front line support. And yes static build up can cause a PC not to power on.

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I'm not arguing about the burden of proof, you appear to want to, but I'm not.

 

Yes, I wrote about the durability test and you then started talking about proving a product was faulty in the first place. A totally different thing.

 

And yes, in the context that I wrote about the reasonable test, that still stands. I didn't say or imply that they wouldn't have to prove that there was really a fault. That was your strawman argument.

 

---------- Post added 29-12-2017 at 14:27 ----------

 

The burden of proof for not meeting the durability test is that it is now broken, before a reasonable person would expect it to be.

 

To put it all back in context, I stated that it had to actually be broken. Clearly that would have to be established to the satisfaction of a magistrate if necessary. :roll:

 

---------- Post added 29-12-2017 at 14:32 ----------

 

“(14) For the purposes of subsections (3)(b) and © and (4), goods which do not conform to the contract at any time within the period of six months beginning with the day on which the goods were delivered to the consumer must be taken not to have conformed to it on that day.”

 

In plain English: if you report a fault or that the product does not conform to contract in another way within the first 6 months then it is assumed that the product did not conform to contract on the day of sale. Therefore if a retailer disagrees they would need to provide evidence otherwise. After that it is assumed that it does conform to contract. If you were to take a retailer to court the burden of proof is on you as you are the one issuing court proceedings. Therefore you would need to prove it did not conform.

 

Retailers do defend and win. I have seen this happen on other forums. Sorry but the consumer needs to provide more than saying it should last x amount – that is not evidence. After 6 months it is assumed an item does conform to contract. A consumer could have damaged it or it could be fair wear – some components you would expect to wear out due to their nature.

 

And regarding this, you may still have to prove that it is actually faulty. All that section says is that any fault that exists is assumed to have existed since purchase. Whereas after the 6 month period that isn't true.

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Do the magistrates court deal with this type of dispute?

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There's no ' love ' guarantees. Unless you're a big fan of the 90s band, Damaged. Which I am not.

 

---------- Post added 29-12-2017 at 15:39 ----------

 

Do the magistrates court deal with this type of dispute?

 

I very much doubt it.

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I should have said District Judge.

 

I wouldn't know that one.

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