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Why does the Council feel the need to enforce bus lanes on Xmas Day?

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Seeing as we are talking specifically Bus Lane enforcement here, why is it that those on London Road/Abbeydale Road are allowed to be contravened on a regular basis on a normal day?

 

The number of times I have observed this makes me wonder?

 

Or, in the same area, the number of (usually large) vehicles that park on the footpaths, causing pedestrians to have to walk in the road?

 

You are spot on its a nightmare down there on many days cars parked all over the place often illegally particularly near the lights at the bottom.

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The case regarding signage and The Matrix is somewhat redundant, in Sheffield.

 

Observation will show that the majority of drivers either can't read or can't understand what is on signs.

 

---------- Post added 28-12-2017 at 10:32 ----------

 

.......

 

I know, because I have visually witnessed the scene.

 

That would be "conjecture", then.

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There's no camera enforcement on Moore St, and you'd be turning left onto St Marys gate, not Hanover Way.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Moore+St,+Sheffield/@53.3742668,-1.4806696,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x4879827db1326853:0xfa55ab0669d052ef!8m2!3d53.3742668!4d-1.4784809

 

---------- Post added 28-12-2017 at 09:57 ----------

 

 

How do you know that those people then get a PCN?

 

I refer to Moore Street into the city at the bottom of Ecclesall Rd going into the city after William St. There is a camera pointing directly up from the roundabout. The average amount of PCNs issued for a normal working day Monday at the bottom of Ecclesall Rd is 26.

 

When I went down to witness how violations were being committed, EVERY one, was vehicles moving in just a little too early, many following the vehicle in front, to turn left up Hanover Way. I saw none that had ventured the full length of the bus lane.

 

I therefore concluded that probably most contraventions were for vehicles partially entering at the end of bus lane at that bus lane.

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I refer to Moore Street into the city at the bottom of Ecclesall Rd going into the city after William St. There is a camera pointing directly up from the roundabout. The average amount of PCNs issued for a normal working day Monday at the bottom of Ecclesall Rd is 26.

 

When I went down to witness how violations were being committed, EVERY one, was vehicles moving in just a little too early, many following the vehicle in front, to turn left up Hanover Way. I saw none that had ventured the full length of the bus lane.

 

I therefore concluded that probably most contraventions were for vehicles partially entering at the end of bus lane at that bus lane.

 

Did you stay and count all day long?

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Did you stay and count all day long?

 

 

No, but I am planning to do.

 

With an average of 26 contraventions issued with a PCN for a normal working day Monday, simple mathematics conclude that is 5.7 vehicles per hour of bus lane restrictions at Moore St. (Almost one every 10 minutes)

 

After my further look at this particular bus lane and a further Freedom of Information request to the Council, I will be in a better position of accurately determining how these contraventions are being made.

 

As the saying goes: your sins will find you out!

Edited by diezeltruck

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Yes, there are no bus services running, thus the bus lanes are entirely pointless and just wasting road capacity.

As you are well aware from previous posts, overall highway capacity is largely governed by junction capacity. Bus lanes generally end before the junction so don't affect network capacity.

 

In light traffic conditions, motorists will gain no advantage by using the bus lane.

 

---------- Post added 28-12-2017 at 13:33 ----------

 

When I went down to witness how violations were being committed, EVERY one, was vehicles moving in just a little too early, many following the vehicle in front, to turn left up Hanover Way. I saw none that had ventured the full length of the bus lane.

How far from the end of the restriction were motorists entering the bus lane?

 

Motorists do not receive a penalty if they just cut into the last few metres.

 

---------- Post added 28-12-2017 at 13:48 ----------

 

I refer to Moore Street into the city at the bottom of Ecclesall Rd going into the city after William St. There is a camera pointing directly up from the roundabout.

Do you mean the camera that's on a big pole in the centre of the roundabout?

 

That one is a traffic cctv camera, it isn't used for enforcement.

 

You can see the actual enforcement camera mounted on a lamp post just to the left of the pedestrian crossing here: https://goo.gl/maps/79U9kFwrojw

It's an automatic camera, so its quite small.

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As you are well aware from previous posts, overall highway capacity is largely governed by junction capacity. Bus lanes generally end before the junction so don't affect network capacity.

 

In light traffic conditions, motorists will gain no advantage by using the bus lane.

 

---------- Post added 28-12-2017 at 13:33 ----------

 

How far from the end of the restriction were motorists entering the bus lane?

 

Motorists do not receive a penalty if they just cut into the last few metres.

 

Sorry planner. That last bit is not true. A friend of mine received a ticket for exactly that. Only the back half of the car went into the bus lane. The photograph shows exactly that. This was a couple of years ago - not sure if things have changed now but by obtaining a copy of the photograph, they were prevented from paying the lower charge. With that in mind, I am sure there are loads where people have just crossed the line, been given a ticket and not asked for the photograph and just took the lower charge.

 

I probably drive on that bit two mornings a month which is not really scientific, but each time I have done, as Diezeltruck says, I have seen vehicles go across the end of the bus lane (with buses cutting back the other way). Given the restricted hours of that bus lane, what he is saying is almost certainly absolutely correct. I have never seen a vehicle that is not either a taxi or a bus drive completely down the bus lane.

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Just wish to add, and thank everyone for their comments to this thread. Some posts have queried why would you want or wish to use a bus lane anyway on Christmas Day, when the roads are quiet? Well, there is a bus lane on Boston St, which does not allow you to turn left onto London Rd, as one example of using that bus lane, and I wish to remind everyone that many PCN's are issued to motorists who just merely 'partially' enter a bus lane not deliberately. This occurs a lot at the end of the bus lane on Moore St, when vehicles wish to get in the left lane to turn onto Hanover Way, at the roundabout. These slight infringements are being penalised on a daily basis and I would go as far as to say that most violations at Moore St are related to vehicles partially entering the bus lane at the end. A wheel may just clip the bus lane, but the Council will class it as a partial enter and a PCN's is therefore issued.

 

I note you are not a motorist.

 

Can I ask what has sparked your interest in this subject? You appear to be spending a lot of time on it.

 

Boston St bus lane only operates 07.30 to 09.30am. It operates pretty much like a part time bus gate rather than a bus lane. It's the only actual bus lane I can think of in Sheffield which doesn't stop before the junction. (it used to be a bus gate higher up Boston St which prevented all traffic coming down Boston St, but the Council moved it to current location so that drivers could go ahead and right at London Rd junction)

 

You contend that drivers can "not deliberately" enter a bus lane. To me that insinuates that drivers are not always in control of where their vehicle is positioned on the road. They should be.

 

If drivers pull into a bus lane, even partially, out of necessity, to avoid an obstruction, this can be picked up on the video clip which is recorded and a penalty may not actually be issued (all contraventions, including those recorded on automatic cameras are reviewed by an operator before the penalty is issued). They also have access to a regulated appeal process which includes an appeal to the independent Traffic Penalty Tribunal, who, in my experience, tend to err on the side of "fairness".

 

Not all contraventions of bus lanes are picked up by enforcement cameras.

 

Automatic cameras have a tightly defined detection area and anything which goes into the lane in that area is recorded. Anything outside the detection area is not recorded.

 

With manually operated cameras, the operator has to zoom in and track the vehicle while recording. The operator can only observe one camera at a time and record one contravention at a time. Therefore not all contraventions are detected and recorded.

 

---------- Post added 28-12-2017 at 14:19 ----------

 

Sorry planner. That last bit is not true. A friend of mine received a ticket for exactly that. Only the back half of the car went into the bus lane. The photograph shows exactly that. This was a couple of years ago - not sure if things have changed now but by obtaining a copy of the photograph, they were prevented from paying the lower charge. With that in mind, I am sure there are loads where people have just crossed the line, been given a ticket and not asked for the photograph and just took the lower charge.

 

I probably drive on that bit two mornings a month which is not really scientific, but each time I have done, as Diezeltruck says, I have seen vehicles go across the end of the bus lane (with buses cutting back the other way). Given the restricted hours of that bus lane, what he is saying is almost certainly absolutely correct. I have never seen a vehicle that is not either a taxi or a bus drive completely down the bus lane.

 

Was the penalty issued in Sheffield?

 

SCC tend to allow for drivers cutting the last few metres of the lane and won't issue a penalty. Other enforcing authorities may not be so lenient.

 

I'm still trying to work out how only the back half of a car ends up in the bus lane, without the front part of the car doing the same?

 

The still photos don't tell the whole story.

 

The operators and the appeal reviewers will view a video clip showing what the driver actually did.

 

If the driver feels aggrieved and the Council refuse their appeal, they should appeal to the traffic penalty tribunal, who are independent and whose decision is binding. It doesn't cost anything, they just pay the penalty at the higher rate if they lose, so in the case you cite, would not have made a difference to the penalty paid.

 

I've previously seen someone on here claim they only contravened the last few metres and got a ticket, but when I looked into it further, they had actually been in the lane for quite a distance. Divers often exaggerate their claims in my experience (which is considerable).

Edited by Planner1

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Planner1

 

I shall respond to your further comments, but not now, as I am a little busy. You make some interesting comments.

 

I shall respond hopefully tomorrow, as I have many answers to the points you have made.

 

I am quite well versed on the subject of bus lanes.

 

You are certainly not the only one here to come across as that.

 

Because YOU say so, does not mean it is correct.

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we are all equal but bus and taxi passengers are some how more deserving of a quick journey than other road users. I don't think so.

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Some towns do not grant bus lane privileges to taxis.

 

Personally, I don't think they should.

If any vehicle other than buses should have access, it should be any vehicle with 4 or more occupants.

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I'm glad somebody has pointed out that bus lines aren't just for buses, but for taxis, cyclists and some other vehicles as well.

 

I'd be in favour of relaxing restrictions when traffic is light - except that in terms of signage you need to keep wording plain and simple. I wouldn't mind if Councils decided to waive fines, except I'd be worried about motorists second guessing the rules.

 

There are FOI requests about the number of PCNs issued in Sheffield on Christmas day.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bustram_lanegate_pcn_statistics

 

This reveals that on 25/12/2015, 8 PCNs were issued in relation to bus/tram lane/gate restrictions. 4 for Langsett Road and 4 for Middlewood Road.

 

And on 25/12/2016, 7 PCNs were issued, all of them for the London Road bus gate.

 

I'm wondering if David Blythen is our own diezeltruck? If so, then the reason for the interest is clear - his brother was penalised for using the Mansfield Road bus lane on a bank holiday Monday.

 

https://www.thestar.co.uk/our-towns-and-cities/sheffield/hundreds-more-bus-lane-fines-issued-on-bank-holidays-in-sheffield-1-8641540

 

---------- Post added 28-12-2017 at 22:11 ----------

 

And we know from another of Blythen's FOI requests...

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/sheffield_bustram_lanesgates_pen

 

.. that an average 2016/17 Monday PCN haul was 174. And the average on a bank holiday Monday in 2016/17 was 230. Note that the average for Mondays excludes the bank holiday Mondays. It's actually the average for Mondays except for those particular ones.

 

---------- Post added 28-12-2017 at 22:41 ----------

 

Liverpool decided to temporarily suspend bus lanes a few years ago and it was such a success that they have not reintroduced them.

I find the biggest hindrance to keeping moving is inconsiderate parking.

 

Not true, they reinstated a handful.

 

On other routes they were recommended to introduce other measures. The consultants report noted a 1-1.5% increase in both bus and other traffic journey times while the suspensions were in effect. Worth comparing their draft report with the report that was officially and initially released.

 

I think it's a good idea to test these things out - it might turn out that some of Sheffield's routes aren't in the right place or have little effect. But I'm not ideologically opposed to bus routes.

 

---------- Post added 28-12-2017 at 22:49 ----------

 

No, but I am planning to do.

 

With an average of 26 contraventions issued with a PCN for a normal working day Monday, simple mathematics conclude that is 5.7 vehicles per hour of bus lane restrictions at Moore St. (Almost one every 10 minutes)

<snip>

 

The trouble with your "simple mathematics" is that all you've done here is average out the 26 PCNs across the restricted period. But who says that contraventions are equally likely across all hours of that period? Might there not be particular times where more people contravene the restrictions than others?

 

---------- Post added 28-12-2017 at 22:51 ----------

 

we are all equal but bus and taxi passengers are some how more deserving of a quick journey than other road users. I don't think so.

 

But there's a wider social question, isn't there? Might it not be a legitimate social aim to encourage people to use public transport, in order to try to reduce car use, on the grounds that otherwise gridlock and pollution are exacerbated and journey times increased?

Edited by Dannyno

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