Should the council use private company to fine people dropping litter?

[kidley 48]

I may or not be mistaken but, regarding the police, i think the police will ask you to pick the litter up if you do pick it up that will be the end of it, if you dont you could be arrested for littering and refusing to obey a lawful command?

[ENG601PM 10]

I may or not be mistaken but, regarding the police, i think the police will ask you to pick the litter up if you do pick it up that will be the end of it, if you dont you could be arrested for littering and refusing to obey a lawful command?

 

Which lawful command would that be? I'm happy to be proven wrong but littering isn't a criminal offence to my knowledge and nobody as shown that any criminal offence has been caused by not giving ID info. The police might be able to make it awkward / embarrassing / coercive, but so far as I know there's no offence that the police have jurisdiction over. The wombles need to get a court order that needs enforcing, which is difficult if they can't identify you.

 

I'm not defending littering, it's a dirty habit, but I sure as hell don't want to see pensioners, children, or anyone else carted away to jail because they dropped 5 cherry pips and refused to talk to a council's private fundraiser.

Edited December 21, 2017 by ENG601PM

[kidley 48]

it is a criminal offence to not obey a police officer in uniform when he/she gives you a lawful order, ie pick your litter up.

[dutch 68]

UK private companies gone out of control, we are moving back to old days. A loving understanding attitude is replaced with a greedy selfish one. I consider that worse than street littering.

[ENG601PM 10]

it is a criminal offence to not obey a police officer in uniform when he/she gives you a lawful order, ie pick your litter up.

 

Care to expand on that?

[willman 10]

Which lawful command would that be? I'm happy to be proven wrong but littering isn't a criminal offence to my knowledge and nobody as shown that any criminal offence has been caused by not giving ID info. The police might be able to make it awkward / embarrassing / coercive, but so far as I know there's no offence that the police have jurisdiction over. The wombles need to get a court order that needs enforcing, which is difficult if they can't identify you.

 

I'm not defending littering, it's a dirty habit, but I sure as hell don't want to see pensioners, children, or anyone else carted away to jail because they dropped 5 cherry pips and refused to talk to a council's private fundraiser.

 

Under Section 50 of the police reform act it is an offence not to give name and address when requested by the Police.

This does however hark back to my earlier post - section 50 is usually applied to anti social behaviour. So if you refuse to disclose and kick off regarding the penalty notice - bump they have you on a technicality. Yet again you could be arrested but still not for littering.

 

Refusing to give your details under section 50:

 

If you refuse to give your name and address you may be arrested, but this is not always the case. Even though the police may threaten to arrest for not providing details they do not always do so.

If you are arrested, you may be taken to a police station and charged with an offence under s50. However, in some cases the police have been known to ‘de-arrest’ if a person gives their details after arrest.

If you are prosecuted, the police will have to provide some evidence to the court that they reasonably believed you had been engaged in anti-social behaviour. If they cannot do this, you should not be convicted.

If you are convicted you may be fined, but you cannot be imprisoned for breaching section 50.

Giving a false or inaccurate name and address is also an offence under section 50.

[kidley 48]

Care to expand on that?

 

what bit is beyond your understanding?

[Cyclone 10]

Methinks the lady doth protest too much. You are captured by a non sequitur of your own making.

 

If the police are called to any instance of littering there are two options.

1. Tell them to buzz off and they leave, in which case where was never any role for them.

or

2. Get arrested for not complying with the litter wombles, in which case littering has been criminalised.

 

There is no legal middle ground with the police. Over to you, from "the resident troll".

 

You create a strawman and I'm not even sure you successfully argue against that.

 

I didn't say that I think the police should be called. I said that the only option should someone just walk away would be to call them.

A distinction that you've missed for at least the 2nd time.

I am merely pointing out that the legislation as it stands is basically unworkable, because no one can be forced to comply without having to get the police involved.

You're so desperate to have an argument that you keep ignoring what is actually written.

 

---------- Post added 21-12-2017 at 12:56 ----------

 

littering isn't a criminal offence to my knowledge

 

The offence of leaving litter (section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990) says that if a person drops, throws deposits or leaves anything so as to cause defacement in a public place, they could be committing a littering offence. The same applies to litter thrown from cars.

[ENG601PM 10]

Under Section 50 of the police reform act it is an offence not to give name and address when requested by the Police.

This does however hark back to my earlier post - section 50 is usually applied to anti social behaviour. So if you refuse to disclose and kick off regarding the penalty notice - bump they have you on a technicality. Yet again you could be arrested but still not for littering.

 

Refusing to give your details under section 50:

 

If you refuse to give your name and address you may be arrested, but this is not always the case. Even though the police may threaten to arrest for not providing details they do not always do so.

If you are arrested, you may be taken to a police station and charged with an offence under s50. However, in some cases the police have been known to ‘de-arrest’ if a person gives their details after arrest.

If you are prosecuted, the police will have to provide some evidence to the court that they reasonably believed you had been engaged in anti-social behaviour. If they cannot do this, you should not be convicted.

If you are convicted you may be fined, but you cannot be imprisoned for breaching section 50.

Giving a false or inaccurate name and address is also an offence under section 50.

Thanks Willman, very informative and I stand technically corrected.

 

This is all reliant on technical use of the law. I still don't believe that it is moral to criminalise occasional litterbugs using the rouse to raise money for councils. There's a wider question there that harks back to the original point and to my mind the means do not justify the end.

[Cyclone 10]

it is a criminal offence to not obey a police officer in uniform when he/she gives you a lawful order, ie pick your litter up.

 

I don't think that's a lawful command, they have no authority to order you to do that.

They do have the discretion to not give you a FPN for the offence though, and if you refuse to pick it up then they can instead issue you the FPN.

As to giving false details, well, someone provided a link to legislation earlier, but on closer inspection it appeared to only apply to vehicle offences.

[ENG601PM 10]

The offence of leaving litter (section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990) says that if a person drops, throws deposits or leaves anything so as to cause defacement in a public place, they could be committing a littering offence. The same applies to litter thrown from cars.

Thanks for that Captain Wikipedia, though I did actually say that I didn't think that littering is a criminal offence.

Edited December 21, 2017 by ENG601PM

[Cyclone 10]

Under Section 50 of the police reform act it is an offence not to give name and address when requested by the Police.

 

If they have the legal grounds to demand it. They can't just walk up to people and demand your name and address for no reason.

 

Some analysis of it here, from the point of view of legal protestors

 

https://freedomnews.org.uk/do-you-have-to-give-the-cops-your-name-and-address-2/

 

---------- Post added 21-12-2017 at 13:04 ----------

 

Thanks for that Captain Wikipedia, though I did actually say that I didn't think that littering is a criminal offence.

 

Do you need a lesson in how to use google so that you don't keep getting basic facts wrong?

 

---------- Post added 21-12-2017 at 13:06 ----------

 

Thanks Willman, very informative and I stand technically corrected.

 

This is all reliant on technical use of the law. I still don't believe that it is moral to criminalise occasional litterbugs using the rouse to raise money for councils. There's a wider question there that harks back to the original point and to my mind the means do not justify the end.

 

So do you have any comment on the actual legal situation as it stands.

 

Which is that it IS an offence to litter, the council or their delegates can issue FPN, but they can't force you to give your name or address nor detain you, making it effectively impossible to issue FPN...

It doesn't seem like a very effective legal situation for the council to combat casual littering... What would you propose is a practical solution?

Edited December 21, 2017 by Cyclone