Tram needed in south sheffield?

[1978 14]

The old track bed down the Sheaf Valley still exists and it might allow for the reinstatement of slow tracks from Dore & Totley into Sheffield. However, it's obstructed by not only Tesco's but the Friends Meeting House and some small business units.

 

By the time HS2 gets to Sheffield reinstating the slow tracks may be necessary anyway to ease the congestion which is getting quite serious even now. By then the present large Tesco's store will probably be out of date, so a nice offer of compensation to remodel or resite it would probably not be resisted too strongly. A transport interchange with multistorey car park might be possible as part of any such development, but a lot of millions are inevitable, and from where? THe HS2 pot might be a good source to bear in mind.

 

When Dore & Totley is restored to a two platform station, possibly by 2020, there could be room to add a 3rd platform alongside the planned new island for a local heavy rail (or even a tram train) service to terminate there. However, timescales in such matters are very long. Redoubling at Dore & Totley was first being planned as far back as 2005, and probably earlier.

 

Of course a tunnelled Supertram route from Meadowhead going below Bramall Lane and the Cathedral to emerge at Gibraltar Street for Hillsborough would be great. Or it could emerge near Ponds Forge to head for Meadowhall. Maybe then link it to the Herdings spur to make a loop. That's pie in the sky, a dream for 2050 at the earliest. Wake up, it's not happening in my lifetime.

[Planner1 428]

It really should have been extended years ago. If you compare it to Manchester’s they have built a system that serves ‘Greater’ Manchester. I understand money is a issue but if your always banging on about green energy you would find the funding and justify it just like they do for transport in London.

 

Money is the issue and you won't get the money from government to build it if you can't make a business case. To be fair to SYPTE they applied for funding to extend and the government said no, it doesn't offer good value for money. Look to buses, which offer better value. That's why you got a bus rapid transit route to Rotherham and not a tram.

 

Greater Manchester can more easily build a business case as they have a population of 2.5 million, against Sheffield which is about a fifth of that. I was told by a TfGM Director that they raised half the cost of the tram extensions locally, which also helps.

[geared 302]

How recently did the government give SCC the brush off though??

It's just now all you hear about is pollution, air quality, how bad it is in city centres and how traffic is the devil.

 

If they're telling us the air is filthy and killing people, but refusing applications for public transport infrastructure (electric transport at that) it just sends out mixed messages.

[alexander874 17]

Money is the issue and you won't get the money from government to build it if you can't make a business case. To be fair to SYPTE they applied for funding to extend and the government said no, it doesn't offer good value for money. Look to buses, which offer better value. That's why you got a bus rapid transit route to Rotherham and not a tram.

 

Greater Manchester can more easily build a business case as they have a population of 2.5 million, against Sheffield which is about a fifth of that. I was told by a TfGM Director that they raised half the cost of the tram extensions locally, which also helps.

 

You can't compare Greater Manchester with Sheffield as one is a county and the other a city , Sheffield is 4th largest and the City of Manchester about 150.000 smaller .

[1978 14]

You can't compare Greater Manchester with Sheffield as one is a county and the other a city , Sheffield is 4th largest and the City of Manchester about 150.000 smaller .

 

You can compare the cities in many ways, but the size of the conurbation by both population and area is what really counts. The wealth of that conurbation can make a difference too. We might be able to claim Rotherham, but Barnsley and Doncaster currently have little wish to be claimed as being in the Sheffield conurbation!

 

One yardstick to assess activity might be the relative number of rail passengers passing through the main stations. Manchester has 3 major city centre stations, Sheffield has but one.

 

The latest passenger figures available are for 2015/16.

 

Sheffield; 9.2 million, plus 1m interchange. That compares with over 40 million in Manchester.

 

Manchester Victoria; 7.6 million

 

Manchester Oxford Road; 7.9 million

 

Manchester Piccadilly; 25 million

 

That's added to the very much larger number of passengers using Manchester's Metrolink trams (37.8 million in 2016/17) than our Supertram (12.6 million in 2016/17), and the greater network of bus routes feeding into the centre. For comparison in another conurbation Tyne & Wear Metro carried 38 million passengers in 2016/17.

 

Chicken and egg, perhaps. With better transport links to the centre Sheffield might grow, but currently we are being beaten by many other cities with trams and rail connections, Nottingham, Birmingham, Newcastle....... Population size and boundaries are, in themselves, only one factor.

[Planner1 428]

How recently did the government give SCC the brush off though??

It's just now all you hear about is pollution, air quality, how bad it is in city centres and how traffic is the devil.

 

If they're telling us the air is filthy and killing people, but refusing applications for public transport infrastructure (electric transport at that) it just sends out mixed messages.

 

The tram system is run by SYPTE. They are the passenger transport authority in South Yorkshire. It's them who make any bids for tram extensions, BRT systems etc, not SCC.

 

The last time SYPTE made an application for a tram extension was in the early 2000's. They were told it didn't offer good enough value for money. As a result of that, they pursued funding for bus rapid transit. These things take many years to develop.

 

Recent tram extensions elsewhere now cost circa £180 million for a single line extension. Places like Manchester and Nottingham are meeting a large slice of that cost from their own local money.

 

SCC are very interested in tram extensions, but their difficulty is where is the money coming from? The city region devolution deal, which offered £30m per year looks dead.

 

Manchester is more vibrant, they can get money from developers and they have a city region devolution deal in place, so they have more money.

 

Nottingham fund their tram extensions via a Workplace Parking Levy, which seems to work very well for them (they claim it keeps congestion down too)and brings in £7m per year to spend on transport projects. Other places like Cambridge / Oxford are now looking at doing it. Doesn't appear to have resulted in any great movement of employers away from Nottingham (I've only seen a report of one who moved and cited the Levy as being the reason).

 

Do we think a Workplace Parking Levy is the solution here?

[E-Man Groovin 27]

The tram system is run by SYPTE. They are the passenger transport authority in South Yorkshire. It's them who make any bids for tram extensions, BRT systems etc, not SCC.

 

The last time SYPTE made an application for a tram extension was in the early 2000's. They were told it didn't offer good enough value for money. As a result of that, they pursued funding for bus rapid transit. These things take many years to develop.

 

Recent tram extensions elsewhere now cost circa £180 million for a single line extension. Places like Manchester and Nottingham are meeting a large slice of that cost from their own local money.

 

SCC are very interested in tram extensions, but their difficulty is where is the money coming from? The city region devolution deal, which offered £30m per year looks dead.

 

Manchester is more vibrant, they can get money from developers and they have a city region devolution deal in place, so they have more money.

 

Nottingham fund their tram extensions via a Workplace Parking Levy, which seems to work very well for them (they claim it keeps congestion down too)and brings in £7m per year to spend on transport projects. Other places like Cambridge / Oxford are now looking at doing it. Doesn't appear to have resulted in any great movement of employers away from Nottingham (I've only seen a report of one who moved and cited the Levy as being the reason).

 

Do we think a Workplace Parking Levy is the solution here?

 

Planner1, I know you get a lot of grief on here and often respond with admirable restraint. I also sense that you have the right motives at least regarding transport, in that you see public transport as the way forward. I do too - as a Londoner I grew up never even thinking about driving anywhere and would love Sheffield to be the same. I think we can both agree that it's not.

 

Question is, how can we improve things? I spend a lot of time every year in Montpellier, France and I have marvelled at the way they've built up their tram system recently. It's amazing, and in the same time Sheffield has done nothing at all.

 

So what can we do? Focusing on the negative "no money" is defeatist in my book. Let's get out there, selling the pros of Sheffield seeking investment from anyone with a bit of cash (but on our terms - no re-run of Streets Ahead please!). You'll probably laugh at me I know, but we need optimism and pro-activity to make our city even better, not down-trodden defeatism. I like the workplace levy - it's a good idea - more like that please!

[SkylinePhoto 10]

Its just not financially viable anymore.

 

Construction is so expensive in this country that the debt would probably never be paid off.

 

To run a tram down Eccy road would probably cost billions.

[bassett one 449]

what if the tram went via Norton were it stops then down Bochum to jordanthorpe,past batemoor the to lowedges and totley,then millhouses to city centre that would cut down a huge amount of traffic?,but its the cost.

[1978 14]

Its just not financially viable anymore.

 

Construction is so expensive in this country that the debt would probably never be paid off.

 

To run a tram down Eccy road would probably cost billions.

 

It's a question of defining priorities for both spending and taxation - and understanding how much people will voluntarily pay in fares. In London it's hardly viable to run a car for many people's commuting, but if you look at the roads a lot still do.

 

Which brings us back to the same old debate, who decides priorities, and who can put forward the best case? At present it's clearly not Sheffield!

 

Instaed of constantly bleating about how badly we are served we need to get down to making very good cases, and then selling them. And there aren't many people able to do that anywhere, but especially it seems in South Yortkshire.

[smithy266 21]

Maybe when all the roadworks at Meadowhead are finished, that'll be the time they will dig it all up again and lay tramlines.

[Planner1 428]

To run a tram down Eccy road would probably cost billions.

 

A couple of hundred million probably. That's what extension lines in other places are costing

 

Original system cost £230m for 3 lines

 

---------- Post added 10-11-2017 at 15:09 ----------

 

Question is, how can we improve things? I spend a lot of time every year in Montpellier, France and I have marvelled at the way they've built up their tram system recently. It's amazing, and in the same time Sheffield has done nothing at all.

 

So what can we do? Focusing on the negative "no money" is defeatist in my book. Let's get out there, selling the pros of Sheffield seeking investment from anyone with a bit of cash (but on our terms - no re-run of Streets Ahead please!). You'll probably laugh at me I know, but we need optimism and pro-activity to make our city even better, not down-trodden defeatism. I like the workplace levy - it's a good idea - more like that please!

 

Comparing here with other countries is not really fair as they have very different funding regimes and regulatory setups.

 

Getting things done needs strong leadership at political and officer level. That's what they have in Manchester and Nottingham. The government trusts them to deliver and so is happy to give them money.