Future tram for Sheffield?

[bazjea 10]

All too often the lights at Sainsbury's have turned to red as I approach after setting off with a green from Penistone Road often with only a couple of cars in front of me at the lights. bad enough but even more annoying is to get stopped at the next two sets of lights heading out of town

 

This also happens setting off from Leppings lane, on a green light turning left onto Penistone Rd, move about 10 yards and join the queue waiting at the red light for the traffic coming from Clay Wheels lane and Sainsbury's car park

This has happened to me twice today

Edited November 9, 2017 by bazjea

[Jeffrey Shaw 90]

Great idea but would cost a lot

Not as much as Supertram, though.

[BigAl1 143]

This also happens setting off from Leppings lane, on a green light turning left onto Penistone Rd, move about 10 yards and join the queue waiting at the red light for the traffic coming from Clay Wheels lane and Sainsbury's car park

This has happened to me twice today

 

And there was me thinking I was the only person in Sheffield experiencing this

[Planner1 438]

This also happens setting off from Leppings lane, on a green light turning left onto Penistone Rd, move about 10 yards and join the queue waiting at the red light for the traffic coming from Clay Wheels lane and Sainsbury's car park

This has happened to me twice today

 

So would you rather they just left you sitting on Leppings Lane until there's a green on main road at Claywheels then?

 

They are letting you move forward a bit, when the signal sequence allows it. That's all.

[bazjea 10]

So would you rather they just left you sitting on Leppings Lane until there's a green on main road at Claywheels then?

 

They are letting you move forward a bit, when the signal sequence allows it. That's all.

 

Surely if both set of lights turned to green at the same time the waiting traffic at Penistone Rd and Leppings Lane would move together.

Which would alsol heip traffic that want to access the outside lane to cross to Herries Rd sooner than they can at the momecnt being stuck in a single file up to

the split to 2 lanes by the garage. Which is another problem

Edited November 10, 2017 by bazjea

[Planner1 438]

Surely if both set of lights turned to green at the same time the waiting traffic at Penistone Rd and Leppings Lane would move together.

Which would alsol heip traffic that want to access the outside lane to cross to Herries Rd sooner than they can at the momecnt being stuck in a single file up to

the split to 2 lanes by the garage. Which is another problem

 

Are you a traffic signal design engineer with experience of configuring complex junctions?

 

My guess is not.

 

The people who designed this and all the other junctions you'll come across are. They are experts in what they do.

 

What makes you think you know more than them about how to configure a traffic signal junction to work most efficiently?

 

I'm not being uncharitable here but the guys who design these things have years of experience and run computer models and simulations to help them come up with the most efficient configurations and timing plans. They do it for a living and are usually quite good at it.

 

But it appears that you sit in the odd bit of a queue now and again and think you know more than they do about how to operate the junction. (you're not the only one who's guilty of this)

 

There is always a good reason why things like that operate the way they do.

It's of course fine to ask why things work like they do and if you like, I can put you in touch with someone at the Council in the team that operates these signalled junctions. They will be able to explain how it all works and answer any questions you have. Would you like me to PM you the details?

[bazjea 10]

Are you a traffic signal design engineer with experience of configuring complex junctions?

 

My guess is not.

 

The people who designed this and all the other junctions you'll come across are. They are experts in what they do.

 

What makes you think you know more than them about how to configure a traffic signal junction to work most efficiently?

 

I'm not being uncharitable here but the guys who design these things have years of experience and run computer models and simulations to help them come up with the most efficient configurations and timing plans. They do it for a living and are usually quite good at it.

 

But" it appears that you sit in the odd bit of a queue now and again" and think you know more than they do about how to operate the junction. (you're not the only one who's guilty of this)

 

There is always a good reason why things like that operate the way they do.

It's of course fine to ask why things work like they do and if you like, I can put you in touch with someone at the Council in the team that operates these signalled junctions. They will be able to explain how it all works and answer any questions you have. Would you like me to PM you the details?

 

Firstly, I would like to apologise if I upset anyone.

 

Where did I say I knew more than any designer I suggested if both lights were green at the same time traffic would flow better if it isn't so surely someone could just perhaps explain in laymans terms why not

Quote

" it appears that you sit in the odd bit of a queue now and again"

 

I do not sit in a bit of a queue now and again. I sit in a long queue

most days morning and afternoons and experience the hold ups and am

not exaggerating

Edited November 13, 2017 by Jeffrey Shaw
Duplicate quotation removed at member's request

[E-Man Groovin 27]

Are you a traffic signal design engineer with experience of configuring complex junctions?

 

My guess is not.

 

The people who designed this and all the other junctions you'll come across are. They are experts in what they do.

 

What makes you think you know more than them about how to configure a traffic signal junction to work most efficiently?

 

This is a good response planner but as someone who has been involved in software design for a good 30+ years, I know, and am sure you too are aware, of the discipline user experience design. The questioner is simply a non-expert user. And no matter how great the designer thinks he or she is, if it doesn't work for the user, it doesn't work.

 

Many online services (of complexity arguably much greater than a set of traffic lights) have learned this the hard way. Indeed I was a meeting at the Home Office last year discussing all the UX-related enhancements to gov.uk.

 

As we like to say, "the user is king".

[Planner1 438]

This is a good response planner but as someone who has been involved in software design for a good 30+ years, I know, and am sure you too are aware, of the discipline user experience design. The questioner is simply a non-expert user. And no matter how great the designer thinks he or she is, if it doesn't work for the user, it doesn't work.

 

Many online services (of complexity arguably much greater than a set of traffic lights) have learned this the hard way. Indeed I was a meeting at the Home Office last year discussing all the UX-related enhancements to gov.uk.

 

As we like to say, "the user is king".

Yes I'm well aware of that, but the problem for traffic engineers / designers is that all drivers on all approaches to a junction usually think they should have priority and experience no delays! That cannot be delivered on congested highway networks so most of them are therefore disappointed with the "user experience".

[Litotes 63]

Are you a traffic signal design engineer with experience of configuring complex junctions?

 

My guess is not.

 

The people who designed this and all the other junctions you'll come across are. They are experts in what they do.

 

What makes you think you know more than them about how to configure a traffic signal junction to work most efficiently?

 

Unfortunately this is the sort of thinking that stifles innovation.

The 'we are the experts' and 'no-one can come up with a better solution than we can' has been proven to be wrong in many other fields and there is no reason that it can't be the same here.

 

Are they investigating using gaming technology with crowd sourced solutions - I doubt, do they encourage external people to come up with answers for their challenges - nope, because they would see it as a threat.

 

It just highlights the narrow minded thinking that this council (and many others to be fair) has.

[Planner1 438]

Firstly, I would like to apologise if I upset anyone.

 

Where did I say I knew more than any designer I suggested if both lights were green at the same time traffic would flow better if it isn't so surely someone could just perhaps explain in laymans terms why not

Quote

" it appears that you sit in the odd bit of a queue now and again"

 

I do not sit in a bit of a queue now and again. I sit in a long queue

most days morning and afternoons and experience the hold ups and am

not exaggerating

 

You suggested by stating:

 

Surely if both set of lights turned to green at the same time the waiting traffic at Penistone Rd and Leppings Lane would move together.

Which would alsol heip traffic that want to access the outside lane to cross to Herries Rd sooner than they can at the momecnt being stuck in a single file up to the split to 2 lanes by the garage. Which is another problem

 

that you think you know better than the people who designed it.

 

You're also wanting them to optimise the operation of the junction around someone entering it from one of the minor approaches, making a turning movement.

 

The junction will be optimised for the heaviest flows, which are straight ahead on the main road. The minor movements have to fit in around that.

 

I have offered you the contact details for a very nice chap at the Council who will explain to you how the junction works and why, in a way you will understand. It's much better if you speak to them direct rather than me being an intermediary.

 

Let me know if you want the details.

 

---------- Post added 12-11-2017 at 13:48 ----------

 

Unfortunately this is the sort of thinking that stifles innovation.

The 'we are the experts' and 'no-one can come up with a better solution than we can' has been proven to be wrong in many other fields and there is no reason that it can't be the same here.

 

Are they investigating using gaming technology with crowd sourced solutions - I doubt, do they encourage external people to come up with answers for their challenges - nope, because they would see it as a threat.

 

It just highlights the narrow minded thinking that this council (and many others to be fair) has.

The engineers who design junction layouts and configure signals use software and modelling tools which are pretty much industry standard. They also have to follow regulations and guidance set down by the government.

 

The fact is that someone who does something for a living will normally know more about it than an occasional user of the facilities. You would not expect it to be any other way. It's not impossible that an end user might have a brilliant idea that no-one else has ever thought of, but in a lengthy career, I've not seen one yet involving how traffic signal junctions are designed / operated.

 

There are usually alternatives, the good designer considers them all and comes up with the best solution available.

 

This isn't a case of "we know best" its a case of a driver entering a large, complex junction from a side road and making a turning movement, somehow expecting that the junction configuration should be optimised to minimise their delays. It probably could be, but that might well mean delays elsewhere in the main approaches. The priority will normally be to move the traffic on the main approaches most efficiently. There will be quite a few other considerations too.

 

Drivers have views and are entitled to express them. They should also get their queries answered. I've offered this person the details so they can contact someone at the Council who can explain why that junction works the way it does and answer any questions they have.

[altus 540]

Are they investigating using gaming technology with crowd sourced solutions - I doubt, do they encourage external people to come up with answers for their challenges - nope, because they would see it as a threat.

 

Somebody did that with their home town using SimCity. A better application to use might be Cities: Skylines as it seems to scale better and allow more realistic road layouts. One thing to bear in mind though - traffic management isn't as easy as some people think:

Teleporting was made as a safety feature when testing showed that less experienced players ran into huge problems when their whole road system became one huge traffic jam