Mr Trump - All discussion here

[Magilla 510]

On 11/09/2020 at 22:31, Tomm06 said:

Considering his achievements as a president

By virtually every measurable metric, like bills proposed, bills signed,  jobs created, the economy, GDP growth highs, the national debt, or time golfing... previous presidents achievements are significantly higher...

 

...except for the golfing

 

There have been some good things, he got US dead back from N.Korea for example, but they're few and far between... and generally overshadowed by his latest gaff.

 

Incidentally, that N.Korea initiative was halted in 2019, when Trump finally realised he was being played like a fiddle

 

Quote

more to the point as a businessman/celebrity who somehow managed to push his way to the number 1 spot in America. I'd say you have to hand it to the man. 

If only they weren't perpetually upended by bankruptcy, fraud and grift

 

Bankruptcies, I guess, could be classed as a business risk... but defrauding children's cancer charities really isn't something to celebrate!

 

Props for getting the presidency tho

 

Quote

I think the odds were upwards of about 80/1 for him winning the prize, I would imagine when he announced his presidency campaign they were significantly higher. 

Sadly for Trump, the committee is obliged take into account his wider record.

 

Quote

The way his opponents and doubters have reacted for 4 full years is a truly embarrassing display

Trump hasn't had it any worse than Obama, or Bush before him.

 

In both cases Trump himself was the protagonist for many of those attacks, so he of all people really doesn't have any cause to complain.

 

Quote

far more embarrassing than anything he has ever said or done in his entire career - and that is saying something.

Oh I dunno:

 

"I have people that have been studying [Obama's birth certificate] and they cannot believe what they're finding ..."

 

That was pretty embarrassing, as were Trumps shrieks and conspiracy theories when that birth certificate was shown and verified!

 

Quote

At least Biden has Cardi B in his corner this year...

...is that better or worse than Kid Rock?

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Magilla

[sheffbag 224]

On 13/09/2020 at 16:56, Magilla said:

By virtually every measurable metric, like bills proposed, bills signed,  jobs created, the economy, GDP growth highs, the national debt, or time golfing... previous presidents achievements are significantly higher...

 

...except for the golfing

 

 

 

Evidence?

 

The Washington Post has done an analysis on the Trump era using official statistics . https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/09/05/trump-obama-economy/ 

You have to discount 2020 because of the impact of the pandemic realistically but just to summarise the comparison to the previous president (ive removed Obamas first year as it is all mainly negative scores)

 

Average Job Gains -  Obama 186K / Trump 182K

Average Economic Growth (GDP)  - Obama 2.2% / Trump 2.5%

Unemployment - Obama end of office 4.7% / Trump pre corona 3.4%

Black unemployment - Obama end of office 7.5% / Trump pre corona 5.4%

Stock Market - Obama end of office 2271 (Had been as low as 871) / Trump Pre corona c3000 and now back above 3400

Average Food Stamps- Obama 43.6M / Trump 39.6M

Manufacturing Output - Obama end of office 102.4 / Trump c105

Average Debt Growth year on Year - Obama 2.2% / Trump 0.9%

Wage rises - Obama end of office 2.5% / Trump pre corona 3.5%

 

Do you have verifiable evidence to counter this and support your comment Magilla?

 

 

 

[butlers 259]

Difference being

Trump took over an already recovering good economy.

The stock market is a terrible way if measuring the economy,the current high is buy backs from the multi trillion tax cut to the top couple of percent.

And in a good economy you pay the debt down.

Trump has overseen the national debt rise from $19 Trillion to $27trillion

I think that's the fastest increase in American history even including WW2.

He did say in 2016 he would eliminate the debt.

 

 

 

[Magilla 510]

4 hours ago, sheffbag said:

Evidence?

 

The Washington Post has done an analysis on the Trump era using official statistics . https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/09/05/trump-obama-economy/ 

Indeed, and as previously stated, in nearly every metric previous presidents did better.

 

Quote

You have to discount 2020 because of the impact of the pandemic realistically but just to summarise the comparison to the previous president (ive removed Obamas first year as it is all mainly negative scores)

7 years for Obama, yet only 3 for Trump?

 

Wouldn't it be better to compare Obama's last term with Trumps first (-covid), or just include everything?

 

Not for Trump it wouldn't!

 

Quote

Average Job Gains -  Obama 186K / Trump 182K

A more reasonable comparison over similar timescales - 215k / 182k

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2019/07/05/trump-is-falling-almost-1-million-jobs-short-vs-obama/

 

Quote

Average Economic Growth (GDP)  - Obama 2.2% / Trump 2.5%

Average of Obama's last term, 2.4%. Highs of 3.1.

As your link makes clear regarding Trump:

"well below the growth under the Clinton, Reagan and Johnson administrations".

 

"Rating the Trump Economy Pre-Covid-19? Just Average"
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-08-13/how-trump-s-economic-growth-record-compares-with-past-presidents

 

Quote

Unemployment - Obama end of office 4.7% / Trump pre corona 3.4%

Reduced by 3.3% in Obamas second term, 1.2% under Trump so far.

 

Quote

Black unemployment - Obama end of office 7.5% / Trump pre corona 5.4%

5.4% is Trumps low, not pre-corona! Black unemployment was rising pre corona.

So, a 7.5% drop (over Obamas 2 terms) compared to Trumps 2.1% (assuming the incorrect 5.4%) so far.

Both graphs clearly show a straight line from the Obama administration, both slowed under Trump and Black unemployment was rising again pre-corona.

Regardless, your interpretation is like claiming you climbed Everest when really you were carried up 3/4 of the way.

 

Quote

Stock Market - Obama end of office 2271 (Had been as low as 871) / Trump Pre corona c3000 and now back above 3400

An almost straight line from 2010.. where is the "Trump effect"?

To quote your link: "Though Obama had better market gains, both presidents have been good for Wall Street."

 

Quote

Average Food Stamps- Obama 43.6M / Trump 39.6M

Mainly a result of the Bush recession, really this highlights that even in a supposedly "booming" economy Trump has done very little here.

 

Quote

Manufacturing Output - Obama end of office 102.4 / Trump c105

"Manufacturing output and jobs stalled in 2019, an early warning sign of economic trouble.", that was before the pandemic.

...was higher under Bush!

 

Quote

Average Debt Growth year on Year - Obama 2.2% / Trump 0.9%

Misleading, the vast majority of Obamas dept was inherited from Bushs Iraq war, significant amounts of funding for the war were done in emergency supplemental appropriations that were "off the books" and not included in the budget until Obama came to power...

...and an inherited recession.

 

None of that suddenly went away after Obama's 1st year. If we're including that debt, we should also include the covid debt too on the Trump side.

 

In reality US debt was exploding pre-pandemic, Covid has merely obscured that view.

 

Quote

Wage rises - Obama end of office 2.5% / Trump pre corona 3.5%

Again, an almost straight line from 2013, but regardless, Obama reached 3.7% & other presidents have done better.

Middle class income rose more, and faster in Obamas second term than Trumps first (pre-corona).

 

Quote

Do you have verifiable evidence to counter this and support your comment Magilla?

Did you even bother to read your own link, because in many cases it directly supports my comments!

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Magilla

[Tony 10]

Some people are going to be very upset when Trump wins the Nobel Peace Prize for bringing peace to the Middle East. 

[butlers 259]

It's laughable the current  hurrahs, two tiny undemocratic states  who can be bought as they want to get thier mits on the latest US military hardware.

Way ,way more important is the US recognising Jerusalem as the Isreal capital againgst pretty much entire world opinion,and UN resolutions,and all the reformers  ( realists)in Isreal.

 

 

 

[Magilla 510]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

Some people are going to be very upset when Trump wins the Nobel Peace Prize for bringing peace to the Middle East. 

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is no more? When did that happen?

 

Oh yeah, it didn't!

 

The central irony, The UAE decided to normalise relations specifically to shut Trump out and stop his plan ever happening!

 

Trump agreed to give Israel the green light to annex Palestinian territory on the West Bank, so the UAE decided to make a deal themselves to stop Trump being able to, offering full normalisation to Israel in return for no annexation.

As a bonus, the UAE also neutralised Israeli opposition to arms sales requests:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/middle-east/2020-08-19/trumps-accidental-diplomacy-middle-east

 

I suppose Trump does deserve some credit, if he hadn't come up with such an abysmal plan, the UAE would not have offered full normalization with Israel to block it.

 

Trump, and you, are going to be very upset if Greta Thunberg or the WHO wins

Edited September 18, 2020 by Magilla

[butlers 259]

And the leader of Kosovo, looked a bit put out that he had agreed to Jersulem being capital.

The ideal that these confections of deals are anywhere near what Jimmy Carter achieved with a real foe  of Isreal is pitiful.

 

From memory ,didn't Trump have a fake " man of the year" Time magazine cover on his wall.

[Thorpist 72]

US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, an iconic champion of women's rights, has died of cancer at the age of 87, may she RIP.

The passing away of Ruth Bader Ginsburg may have a longer effect on the United States than President Trumps decisions as he will try to install his choice of a new Supreme Court Justice before the election.

[Magilla 510]

On 19/09/2020 at 09:29, Thorpist said:

US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, an iconic champion of women's rights, has died of cancer at the age of 87, may she RIP.

The passing away of Ruth Bader Ginsburg may have a longer effect on the United States than President Trumps decisions as he will try to install his choice of a new Supreme Court Justice before the election.

I guess that solemn pledge Republicans made, that they won't confirm a new SC judge in an election year, doesn't work both ways

[Tony 10]

On 18/09/2020 at 15:21, Magilla said:

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is no more? When did that happen?

 

Trump, and you, are going to be very upset if Greta Thunberg or the WHO wins

1. The Palestine matter is a gnat on the rear of Middle East politics. Whatever side anyone chooses to be on the simple truth is that it is used as a proxy to attack Israel by real countries who historically have a problem with Israel. Those real countries have been beating up each other for decades too depending on which tribal loyalty they adhere to. Removing the tribal loyalties by bringing them alongside Israel only leaves Iran out in the cold and nobody is very upset by that - except Iran.

 

2. The Nobel Peace Prize isn't really suitable for either Thunberg or the WHO is it. 

 

I did say that people would be upset

[Magilla 510]

6 hours ago, Tony said:

1. The Palestine matter is a gnat on the rear of Middle East politics. Whatever side anyone chooses to be on the simple truth is that it is used as a proxy to attack Israel by real countries who historically have a problem with Israel. Those real countries have been beating up each other for decades too depending on which tribal loyalty they adhere to. Removing the tribal loyalties by bringing them alongside Israel only leaves Iran out in the cold and nobody is very upset by that - except Iran.

There isn't peace in the Middle East... and what shoots of peace there are aren't of Trumps making.

 

6 hours ago, Tony said:

2. The Nobel Peace Prize isn't really suitable for either Thunberg or the WHO is it.

Far more than it would be suitable for someone who's record is one of deliberately stoking division.

 

6 hours ago, Tony said:

I did say that people would be upset

Get your tissues ready