Far-right Britain First fosters ties with Zionist movement

[WestTinsley 11]

 

is this a joke?[ ...?...]How many times have you visited Israel? How many Armenian Israelis - or Armenian Palestinians, because some of them have Israeli nationality, and some of them haven't - have you met?

 

the ones who ended up on the Israeli side of the line and who were outside the old city and the West Bank in 1948 are today predominately non-Arab Israeli citizens with equal rights under the law to any other Israeli. The ones who ended up on the Arab side of the 1949 Armistice Line, predominately took up Jordanian nationality. But being non-Arabs, their status in today's PA, and totally unlike that in Israel where nearly all of them are full Israeli citizens, is unclear. The Armenians who ended up on the Arab side of the so-called 'Green Line', have much less rights than the ones who ended up and who continue to live as Israeli citizens on the Israeli side. Nearly all of the 700 or so Armenians in east Jerusalem are at least official residents of Jerusalem (like many Arabs are), and many of them have also applied to be Israeli citizens, again like many Arabs have, and sometimes - believe it or not - the citizenship applications they make are successful.

 

WestTinsley, I'd be absolutely delighted if you could provide any evidence of 'miltary occupation, forced displacement, loss of land/property, ethnic cleansing and Apartheid and Racist laws of the Zionist occupation' relating to the small Armenian community in Israel but I'm afraid that you won't be able to provide any for the simple reason that it never happened.

 

Israel's Armenian community has spread out through Israel these days and the small Armenian community of about 700 people (about 10% of the total of Armenians in Israel) in the old city of Jerusalem is still there, concentrated in the Armenian quarter that bears their name. The plaque commemorating the Armenian Genocide is still there on the wall bang right opposite the Jaffa Gate and visible almost as soon as you walk in.

When I read delusional nonsense like what youve written, it's like proving the facts that smoking damages your health to a propagandist of the tobacco industry.. you'll spout delusionary indoctrinated nonsense till the cows come home.

Be nice to prove your assertions with links ..

As some one who knows many Palestinians Armenians quite well I find it disgraceful that you'd use their predicament.. most have been forced to leave Palestine fyi and many are under threats from the Isreali occupation and settlers as we speak in occupied Jerusalem.

[blake 10]

many Armenians have emigrated from the West Bank true - some to Armenia, a country with which Israel enjoys excellent diplomatic relations, but mostly to the United States. But that's not because of anything the Israelis have done. It's because being a Christian - which Armenians are - in the West Bank is no fun at all. Armenians have simply been a small part of the recent wave of mass emigration of Christians from the West Bank.

 

meanwhile, in Israel itself and totally unlike in the West Bank, the numbers of Armenians hasn't decreased at all. They're mostly Israeli citizens, and if they are not Israeli citizens, then they are least totally legal Israeli residents.

 

may I ask, just where, exactly, did you meet the Armenians that you claim to know 'quite well' ????

 

I used to live right on top of the Armenian Quarter in East Jerusalem, and incidentally, your use of the phrase 'Armenian Palestinian' is the first time I've ever heard that phrase. But then you would be unlikely to hear the phrase 'Armenian Israeli' either. They're Armenians. Some of them residing in Israel, have Israeli nationality or residency, and some of them, the ones who have been emigrating en masse out of the West Bank, haven't.

[WestTinsley 11]

 

 

may I ask, just where, exactly, did you meet the Armenians that you claim to know 'quite well' ????

I used to live right on top of the Armenian Quarter in East Jerusalem, and incidentally, your use of the phrase 'Armenian Palestinian' is the first time I've ever heard that phrase. But then you would be unlikely to hear the phrase 'Armenian Israeli' either. They're Armenians. Some of them residing in Israel, have Israeli nationality or residency, and some of them, the ones who have been emigrating en masse out of the West Bank, haven't.

The first you ever heard that phrase??

The bloody Palestinian ambassador to uk is a Palestinian Armenian. Syriacs and Armenians in Jerusalem that you seem to talk for are Palestinian it's a nationality ... isreal is an illegal occupation, thats why thousands of Palestinians have been forced to leave since 1948 1967 and on since.

Youll get more 'sense' out of far right edl bigot or a flat earth advocate than you would the usual delusional rabid racist Zionist...

[blake 10]

while I am pleased to see that a non-Arab, in this case a Christian Armenian, has achieved a fairly prominent Palestinian Authority diplomatic position just like many Arabs have in Israeli politics, I would find it very difficult to believe that there are many, if any more for the simple reason that compared to the number of Armenians residing in east Jerusalem and the West Bank the number of Armenians residing in Israel is much greater. There's about only about 700 Armenians in east Jerusalem's tiny Armenian quarter, the smallest of the 4 quarters, who are probably counted in both the Israeli and Arab figures. I'm not sure how many Armenians there are in the West Bank, because of course the PA don't keep accurate figures but it's certainly going be a LOT LESS than the 10,000 Armenians who live in Israel. Al Jazeera claims that there around 4,500 Armenians in the West Bank now, which I would think is probably an overestimate. I'd be surprised if there is much more than half that. Al-Jazeera says it's down to 4,500 from 15,000 in 1948 which mirrors the massive decline in the numbers of other Christians in the West Bank when at the same time, the number of other (Muslim) Palestinians in the West Bank has not declined at all, but has in fact quadrupled, or increased, massively, by 400% (genocide, anyone?).And unlike Armenians in the West Bank, Christian Armenians in Israel, although at only 10,000 there aren't that many of them, aren't declining in number. Armenians in Israel, whether they are Israeli citizens or just residents, appear to be in fact flourishing. Armenians aren't Arabs. But they are part of Israel's Christian community of which 80%, are Arabs. Christians in Israel, although they are only 2% of all Israelis, have among the highest income levels and educational attainments of any group in the country including I think every Jewish group, except Ashkenhazis. By contrast being a non-Arab, and also a Christian Armenian in the increasingly authoritarian and Muslim majority West Bank is not going to be much fun, but it is of course going to be a lot better than being a non-Arab Christian Armenian in Gaza where the numbers are going to be not much more if any more at all, than zero.

Edited September 7, 2017 by blake

[Michael_W 11]

Right wing extremists reported to the Governments anti terror unit have risen sharply in the last year - thirty percent as it happens.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/finsbury-park-attack-far-right-extremist-rise-year-statistics-prevent-terrorism-scheme-referrals-a7798231.html

 

Does this concern you at all?

 

Clearly not as much as it does you, I reckon when it bothers the likes of me we will genuinely have a problem.

My honest belief is that right wing extremism, as I have said previously, tends to be greatly exaggerated here in the UK, it suits the left wingers to call anyone with right wing views extremists, racists, bigots, xenophobes, Islamophobes etc etc, so as to silence them and their opinions, it happens on here quite often.

The few genuine fascist/Neo Nazi extremist elements are usually very quickly found out, particularly white British ones like those recently from the banned group National Action.

Why do you think there has been an increase this last year particularly, in what are generally described by the media as 'right wing extremists' and how extreme are these 'right wing extremists' ?

In numerical terms I would argue there are probably more active Islamic extremists in the UK than right wing extremists', recent terrorist incidents in Manchester and London would seem to back up that view.

The general hypocrisy surrounding these age old left and right arguments is that the left are quick to label any 'right wingers' as 'extremists' and then argue the wrongs of people labelling followers of a certain religion as 'terrorists', do you not see that ?

[Halibut 12]

Clearly not as much as it does you, I reckon when it bothers the likes of me we will genuinely have a problem.

My honest belief is that right wing extremism, as I have said previously, tends to be greatly exaggerated here in the UK, it suits the left wingers to call anyone with right wing views extremists, racists, bigots, xenophobes, Islamophobes etc etc, so as to silence them and their opinions, it happens on here quite often.

The few genuine fascist/Neo Nazi extremist elements are usually very quickly found out, particularly white British ones like those recently from the banned group National Action.

Why do you think there has been an increase this last year particularly, in what are generally described by the media as 'right wing extremists' and how extreme are these 'right wing extremists' ?

In numerical terms I would argue there are probably more active Islamic extremists in the UK than right wing extremists', recent terrorist incidents in Manchester and London would seem to back up that view.

The general hypocrisy surrounding these age old left and right arguments is that the left are quick to label any 'right wingers' as 'extremists' and then argue the wrongs of people labelling followers of a certain religion as 'terrorists', do you not see that ?

 

Are you claiming that the figures showing large rises in hare crime directed at Muslims, Jews, and others are false?

 

Or are you saying you don't think they're perpetrated by people with ring wing sympathies?

[WestTinsley 11]

while I am pleased to see that a non-Arab, in this case a Christian Armenian, has achieved a fairly prominent Palestinian Authority diplomatic position just like many Arabs have in Israeli politics, I would find it very difficult to believe zero.

All you do is spout nonsense...you really haven't a clue what you are talking of.. nevertheless.. if you want to support a fascist settler state that has uprooted Palestinians and continues to ...then good for you

. the Palestinian community as a whole and society has been decimated by foreign settlers no matter their religions ... And those that remained live under Isreali Apartheid laws ..just as your Isreali Arabs [48Palestinans] that the Zionist state didn't kill,expel or bribe were kept under military rule for 25 years. And still live as 3rd class Isreali passport holders.

Never forget most of those Palestinians that have been kicked out of Palestine and their descendents,

as refugees have a right of return to their country just as you have the right to return to yours back in the UK.

As it stands now in all historic Palestine where half the Palestinians live they outnumber the settlers..

Time to end the slow genocide and oppression and apartheid laws on the native Palestinians.. rather than supporting a growing fascistic jabotinskyist zionist state ..every day more and more [non zionist] Jews in Palestine are waking up to the fact that they live in fascistic isreali Aparthied state.. this should give us all hope for the future

Edited September 7, 2017 by WestTinsley

[Michael_W 11]

Are you claiming that the figures showing large rises in hare crime directed at Muslims, Jews, and others are false?

 

Or are you saying you don't think they're perpetrated by people with ring wing sympathies?

 

Are all these hate crimes perpetrated by white British nationals ('your' preferred brand of 'right wing extremists') ?

In my opinion there seems to be quite a bit of discontent amongst EU nationals and Asians in some inner city areas, evidence not too far away.

Do you choose to only see right wing extremists, have you noticed the anti-semetic left or do you actually recognise that not everything is rosy in the 'multi-culti' garden ?

What scale from 1 to 10 in 'hate crime' terms do you give to those who blow kids up at a pop concert ?

[blake 10]

All you do is spout nonsense...you really haven't a clue what you are talking of.. nevertheless.. if you want to support a fascist settler state that has uprooted Palestinians and continues to ...then good for you

. the Palestinian community as a whole and society has been decimated by foreign settlers no matter their religions ... And those that remained live under Isreali Apartheid laws ..just as your Isreali Arabs [48Palestinans] that the Zionist state didn't kill,expel or bribe were kept under military rule for 25 years. And still live as 3rd class Isreali passport holders.

Never forget most of those Palestinians that have been kicked out of Palestine and their descendents,

as refugees have a right of return to their country just as you have the right to return to yours back in the UK.

As it stands now in all historic Palestine where half the Palestinians live they outnumber the settlers..

Time to end the slow genocide and oppression and apartheid laws on the native Palestinians.. rather than supporting a growing fascistic jabotinskyist zionist state ..every day more and more [non zionist] Jews in Palestine are waking up to the fact that they live in fascistic isreali Aparthied state.. this should give us all hope for the future

 

this guy is such an imbecile, who knows nothing at all about the Israel-Palestine issue.

 

genocide?

 

Germany committed genocide against the Jews from 1933–1945

 

Jewish population worldwide in 1933: 19 million

Jewish population worldwide in 1945: 13.2 million

Jewish population worldwide in 2017: 13.2 million

over 70 years later they are sonly barely recovering.

 

Turkey committed genocide against the Armenian population through the 1910s and 1920s.

 

Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire 1915: 1.5 million

Armenian population in Turkey 1935: 77,000

Armenian population in Turkey 2017: 61,000

 

they fared even worse than Jews in that respect. The genocide of Armenian Christians, at the hands of Turkish Muslims, they have still not recovered from 100 years later.

 

That - the Jewish and Armenian Genocides - is the rawest and most evil form of genocide and to draw a comparison between that and what has has happened to the Palestinians is not just wrong, but a form of holocaust denial.

 

because :

 

[let's see what's happened in Israel-Palestine.

 

Palestinian population 1947 - 600,000

Palestinian population 2017: 3.5 million

 

Nations that suffer genocide see a tragic and steep drop in their population. In the 70 years from 1947, the Palestinian population has increased SIX TIMES.

 

That's a genocide?

 

In addition, since 1967, only 50 years ago, the Palestinians have seen their income levels increase, and in real not absolute terms too, by 500%. Their life expectancy has increased by 20 years.*Their infant mortality rate has dropped by 80%.

 

that's a genocide?

 

I also like the reference to the 'jabotinskyist zionist state'. Ze'ev Jabotinsky is often called a 'fascist' by these anti-Israel numbskulls, which only shows how ignorant they are about the history of Palestine, the Yishuv, and the Yishuv's political figures because Jabotinsky was definitely not a fascist or anything close to it - although Jabotinsky was right wing compared to the massive majority of early Zionists who were by today's standards, fairly extreme left wingers. Jabotinsky was an economic liberal, was not an authoritian at all, he believed in a free press, and unbelievable as it might seem to the likes of ignorant bigots like WestTinsley, he also believed that the rights of minorities should be protected in any future Jewish state. Jabotinsky was not a fascist at all and people like WestTinsley are travestising history by pretending that he was. If Jabotinsky was in politics today, he would be on the left wing of the Tory party like somebody like Kenneth Clarke. Whereas the big majority of early Zionism's political figures, and Jabotinsky's political opponents, would be lining up with Jeremy Corbyn.

 

minus the antisemitism, of course

 

---------- Post added 07-09-2017 at 19:50 ----------

 

Are you claiming that the figures showing large rises in hare crime directed at Muslims, Jews, and others are false?

 

Or are you saying you don't think they're perpetrated by people with ring wing sympathies?

 

the rise in antisemitic attacks is still to a very large extent, attributable to far-right Stormfront Nazi type perpetrators. If somebody attacks a synagogue or beats up an observant Jewish bloke walking down the street, then they are far likelier to be a Stormfront Nazi type person than anyone else - who are, as you know, the traditional perpetrators of anti Jewish violence.

 

but, when it comes to antisemitic attacks, Islamists and Muslims, totally unknown say 30 years ago, have started to come up on the radar now too - though not as much as some Jewish groups like to claim. The big majority of antisemitic attacks are STILL by far-right Stormfront nazi types.

 

more alarmingly for those left-wingers who like to think they are these beacons of tolerance and respect, there is a new category of antisemite attacks too, also, like attacks from Islamists and Muslims, unknown 30 years ago.

 

these come from not far-right Stormfront type Nazis, but left-wingers who may consider themselves 'socialists'. They can vandalise a synagogue or a Jewish grave just like a Nazi or an Islamist Muslim can. Only they do it in the name of 'anti-Zionism'. Which is just Jew-hating antisemitism by another name.

Edited September 7, 2017 by blake

[WestTinsley 11]

 

for sure, the far-right groups in Europe appear to have, on the surface, to have shed their former blatant Jew-hating antisemitism and some of them have even begun making noises praising Israel which they would never have done before.

 

---------- Post added 07-09-2017 at 09:54 -------

Your previous post at least the bit I read that wasn't c&p about jabotinsky was all I needed to know about you. A terrorist and a Jewish Fascist call him an extreme ultra zionist if You want blake.

A fascist who was at the forefront in calling for genocide and ethnic cleansing of the native Palestinians..not bad for a Russian jew who'd only been in Palestine 6 years. Shall we mention what he and his groups and inspired terror groups planned and did to the poor British mandate troops..??

 

I'll leave you with this why does a jew in Britain who may never have been to the Zionist state have free entry into it and to live where he or she wants , yet a Palestinian who has been exiled and is a refugee is banned to even visit.

 

Another one why do Jews from Europe and America etc have a link to the land of Palestine ???

Why should they have gone there ? And cleared out 87% of a countries population?

Did God promise it the Zionists or Did they go back to some place they thought they were from 1850 years ago???

Edited September 7, 2017 by WestTinsley

[blake 10]

jabotinsky was A terrorist and a Jewish Fascist call him an extreme ultra zionist if You want blake.

A fascist who was at the forefront in calling for genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

 

 

you're just an illiterate imbecile, and if anybody is the racist/fascist around here, it's you. I don't think I would have voted for him had I been one of the Yishuv, but Jabotinsky certainly wasn't a fascist.

 

here is what was in Jabotinsky's constitution for the proposed Jewish state, in 1934 :

 

the Arab minority is to be on an equal footing with its Jewish counterpart "throughout all sectors of the country's public life." The two communities were to share the state's duties, both military and civil service, and enjoy its prerogatives. Jabotinsky proposed that Hebrew and Arabic should enjoy equal rights and that "in every cabinet where the prime minister is a Jew, the vice-premiership shall be offered to an Arab and vice versa."

 

now, you might call that naïve. You might call it unrealistic, although today over 80 years later Israel's 23% Arab minority is not all that far off what Jabotinsky envisoned. But there is no way you could possibly call it racist, or fascist. I would never have voted for Jabotinsky. But when two-bit lying propagandist imbeciles like you with no historical knowledge at all, want to call Jabotinsky a fascist, when he was just a right-of-centre economic liberal who would be bit of a wet Tory today, then I'll call you up on it. Because it is just not true.

Edited September 8, 2017 by blake

[esme 10]

Mod Note

 

The personal comments and insults can stop now please.

 

Go for a walk, take a breath whatever you need, but any more insults will result in suspensions

 

The thread will be reopened in a few minutes once you've had chance to read this

 

-- EDIT --

 

Thread reopened

Edited September 8, 2017 by esme