I1L2T3   10 #61 Posted July 18, 2017 I don't see anyone claiming they are overpaid here, just that there is a myth that the public sector is paid less than the private, perpetrated in the vast majority by the unions. ---------- Post added 18-07-2017 at 10:17 ----------   Don't forget the early retirement privileges of many public sector workers. Something only a tiny minority of the private sector can achieve.  Er, some people are arguing precisely that.  As for retiring early, try being a nurse or a firefighter into your 60s after 40 years in the job. Many are physically wrecked before then. Remember too that everybody has the choice of working in the public sector. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Andy1976   10 #62 Posted July 18, 2017 Er, some people are arguing precisely that. As for retiring early, try being a nurse or a firefighter into your 60s after 40 years in the job. Many are physically wrecked before then. Remember too that everybody has the choice of working in the public sector.  You know, parts of the public sector don't help themselves.  There was an ad on Hallam the other day, trying to recruit teachers and get people into teacher training.  You'll have to forgive me not being able to quote word for word, but it was along the lines of...  'Are you interested in teaching? I was, and I was given a £25k bursary to get me started. Now I'm qualified, I earn more than any of my graduate friends'  The last line is literally what was said. So basically you're paid to train, and then paid better than other graduates. Hardly helps the case that public sector workers are badly paid! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Berberis   10 #63 Posted July 18, 2017 Er, some people are arguing precisely that. As for retiring early, try being a nurse or a firefighter into your 60s after 40 years in the job. Many are physically wrecked before then. Remember too that everybody has the choice of working in the public sector.  I have not seen a single response on this thread where someone has argued that the public sector is paid too much. The argument is the public sector is paid more than the private sector and the ONS and IFS back this up.  There are many more manual jobs in the private sector where you are not allowed to retire early. Your argument that who would be a firefighter in their 60's is easily countered with who would be a bricklayer, North sea fisherman, lumberjack, oilrig worker, miner, farmer in their 60's? Many do, but there are also other roles people can play in the public sector that are not as physically demanding too. Early retirement is also not exclusive to the physical jobs either.  The public sector is paid on average a higher hourly rate than the private sector. The public sector has by far better pension provision for its workers. The public sector in addition offers early retirement to a large number of employees. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Andy1976   10 #64 Posted July 18, 2017 There are many more manual jobs in the private sector where you are not allowed to retire early. Your argument that who would be a firefighter in their 60's is easily countered with who would be a bricklayer, North sea fisherman, lumberjack, oilrig worker, miner, farmer in their 60's? Many do, but there are also other roles people can play in the public sector that are not as physically demanding too. Early retirement is also not exclusive to the physical jobs either.  Indeed! My dad retired from being a window cleaner aged 65. Very, very physical work, but he just got on with it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
alchresearch   206 #65 Posted July 18, 2017 Er, some people are arguing precisely that. As for retiring early, try being a nurse or a firefighter into your 60s after 40 years in the job. Many are physically wrecked before then. Remember too that everybody has the choice of working in the public sector.  I don't think many firefighters assume they have a job for life.  I've worked with two in the past, both retired with good pensions then went on to work as IT Techs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
I1L2T3   10 #66 Posted July 18, 2017 You know, parts of the public sector don't help themselves. There was an ad on Hallam the other day, trying to recruit teachers and get people into teacher training.  You'll have to forgive me not being able to quote word for word, but it was along the lines of...  'Are you interested in teaching? I was, and I was given a £25k bursary to get me started. Now I'm qualified, I earn more than any of my graduate friends'  The last line is literally what was said. So basically you're paid to train, and then paid better than other graduates. Hardly helps the case that public sector workers are badly paid!  I dont see a problem with promoting teaching in that way. Why do you have an issue? Don't we need teachers?  ---------- Post added 18-07-2017 at 14:03 ----------  Indeed! My dad retired from being a window cleaner aged 65. Very, very physical work, but he just got on with it.  His choice.  It's wrong to be envious of other people if your misfortune is because of your own choices.  ---------- Post added 18-07-2017 at 14:07 ----------  I don't think many firefighters assume they have a job for life. I've worked with two in the past, both retired with good pensions then went on to work as IT Techs.  Really, got any solid evidence? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
ihpb   10 #67 Posted July 18, 2017 The way I see public sector structures is that the people doing the hard work are getting the least and those that are doing the least work getting the most. Could do with restructuring pay scales from the top to pay for the lower scales. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Andy1976 Â Â 10 #68 Posted July 18, 2017 I dont see a problem with promoting teaching in that way. Why do you have an issue? Don't we need teachers? Â We do indeed, but when people on here have been banging on about the appalling low pay of public sector workers, this advert blatantly says it isn't true. Make your mind up - are they badly paid or not? Â His choice. Â It's wrong to be envious of other people if your misfortune is because of your own choices. Â I'm sorry, what? No one is envious of anyone. My point is quite clearly that the whole 'oh look at me, I'm a firefighter having to work till 65' argument is invalid, as countless other people do the same in equally active professions. Of course you only quoted my comment, not that of Berberis, who was referring to the same thing. Â And 'misfortune'? Really?! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
I1L2T3   10 #69 Posted July 18, 2017 We do indeed, but when people on here have been banging on about the appalling low pay of public sector workers, this advert blatantly says it isn't true. Make your mind up - are they badly paid or not?   I'm sorry, what? No one is envious of anyone. My point is quite clearly that the whole 'oh look at me, I'm a firefighter having to work till 65' argument is invalid, as countless other people do the same in equally active professions. Of course you only quoted my comment, not that of Berberis, who was referring to the same thing.  And 'misfortune'? Really?!  Teachers are quite badly paid for what they do, especially when you consider their year on year real terms pay cuts for nearly a decade.  That they are getting paid more than some other graduates just serves to highlight issues with low pay for young people even further.  And Yeah, it's simple politics of envy and stupidity. You are turning on the people who keep you safe, because you have been brainwashed to. It deflects attention away from the real villains, the ones who foster inequality. You're just one of the little people beating up on other little people, fighting a silly little war for an elite that looks on you as a useful idiot.  Just join the majority of the public in supporting our public sector workers in their fight for fair pay. You know it makes sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Berberis   10 #70 Posted July 18, 2017 The way I see public sector structures is that the people doing the hard work are getting the least and those that are doing the least work getting the most. Could do with restructuring pay scales from the top to pay for the lower scales.  That IS my experience of the public sector. Department I worked in (on contract) had a full time member of staff who did nothing for the entire 18 months I was there. He was so rude and surly to people, no one wanted to talk to him but he was kept on his £40,000+ a year salary with his own office to keep him away from anyone.  ---------- Post added 18-07-2017 at 15:16 ----------  Indeed! My dad retired from being a window cleaner aged 65. Very, very physical work, but he just got on with it.  My Grandfather died at 73 while working as a farmer. No early retirement for him. He worked almost every day of his life for over 50 years. The public sector early retirement excuse is utter dross. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Mister M   1,575 #71 Posted July 18, 2017 The way I see public sector structures is that the people doing the hard work are getting the least and those that are doing the least work getting the most. Could do with restructuring pay scales from the top to pay for the lower scales.  Exactly this.  I work in the public sector, and my experience is that there is a Kafkaesque level of bureaucracy where those who do the work, on the front line are micro managed to within an inch of their lives. Executive management, senior management, middle management earn over inflated salaries, and no-one on the front line seem to know what for.  In the Blair years there was a development of the 'managerialist' ethos, and in the NHS between 1997 - 2010, according to the King's Fund, there was a 28% rise in the number of managers. although to be fair spending on the NHS grew massively in these years as well.  Many of these managers, not just in the NHS, but in Education, Local Government, and all the other public services have been found to be earning more than the PM. The former Chief Executive of Oxfordshire Council, where there was a horrific child abuse grooming scandal on her watch, earned £356,033 salary. Her golden goodbye from the council was £259,000. (These figures were obtained by Freedom of Information requests - and the current government are looking at curtailing of the FOI).  Governments under all different parties have pledged to tackle the issue, partly because they know the public are incensed that while their services are being cut, executives of public services are pocketing outrageous salaries. Whatever pledges Governments have made, it's clearly made no difference. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
muddycoffee   10 #72 Posted July 18, 2017 The way I see public sector structures is that the people doing the hard work are getting the least and those that are doing the least work getting the most. Could do with restructuring pay scales from the top to pay for the lower scales.     Less simple than that is that workers who are continuously hard working and conscientious don't get any reward for this over the lazy ones that do the same job. It is so difficult to sack someone from a permanent contract that when it actually happens it has to be made into a serious matter that can take many months of a manager's time up.  In my view it would be more satisfactory if those that don't put any effort in should be moved down a pay point or to a lower scale. Also those that semi retire and move on to part time hours should be barred from returning on the same pay rate as they never seem to work like they deserve such pay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...