Towering inferno in London

[julado 10]

I want politics to be kept out of it. That's the point.

 

The whole thing is politicised...by the very fact that those involved and those who lost their lives are living in a council block in a London borough who wishes that people like them were not there. Part of the reason for adding the cladding was because posher people who had to look at the tower as it was complained to the council that it was an eyesore.

 

Do you think that this would have happened to a privately owned tower of flats where builders, contractors would have had to have kept to health and safety guidelines...and most definitely had to include a sprinkler system...or at least dry risers (that in this tower were removed during the refurbishment).

 

Or do you want to live in a fluffy pink world where poor people don't exist?

[truman 10]

The whole thing is politicised...by the very fact that those involved and those who lost their lives are living in a council block in a London borough who wishes that people like them were not there. Part of the reason for adding the cladding was because posher people who had to look at the tower as it was complained to the council that it was an eyesore.

 

Do you think that this would have happened to a privately owned tower of flats where builders, contractors would have had to have kept to health and safety guidelines...and most definitely had to include a sprinkler system...or at least dry risers (that in this tower were removed during the refurbishment).

 

Or do you want to live in a fluffy pink world where poor people don't exist?

 

Are you accusing someone of not adhering to guidelines etc.?

[Obelix 11]

The whole thing is politicised...by the very fact that those involved and those who lost their lives are living in a council block in a London borough who wishes that people like them were not there. Part of the reason for adding the cladding was because posher people who had to look at the tower as it was complained to the council that it was an eyesore.

 

Do you think that this would have happened to a privately owned tower of flats where builders, contractors would have had to have kept to health and safety guidelines...and most definitely had to include a sprinkler system...or at least dry risers (that in this tower were removed during the refurbishment).

 

Or do you want to live in a fluffy pink world where poor people don't exist?

 

OK so what part of it do you think breached H+S guidelines then? And why would private towers be required to have sprinklers and not council since theyd be on the same building regulations.

 

Also I've never ever seen a tower block with external sprinklers....

[top4718 838]

It depends on the type of contract, but...

 

(I no longer work in the construction industry so don't have access to the regs, but from memory...)

 

In all but the smallest contracts, CDM regs will apply, and any council and contractor will be aware of their responsibilities. There are several defined roles, each with defined responsibilities.

 

I may have got wording/titles wrong, as the wording changed a few years ago. There should be plenty of people who can correct me.

 

Roughly speaking, these roles are:

Owner, who commissions the work.

Project Manager (may have got this title wrong), who manages the contract.

Designer, who designs the work, and

Contractor, who builds it.

 

Some of these roles can be shared

eg, the owner can also project manage,

the project manager could also design, the contractor could also design, etc.

 

For example, if a council wants a building cladding, it could design the scheme itself, prepare drawings etc, act as project manager, and invite a contractor to quote against a detailed design and a bill of quantities. So the owner is also the project manager and the designer

 

Alternatively, at the other end of the scale, it could approach a contractor, and ask it to project manage and design, as well as build, ie the contractor is also the project manager and designer. (Typical a design-build contract, or turn key).

 

There are a whole range of options in between.

 

The council, as owner, especially if he is not technically competent himself, could employ a consulting engineer to design and manage the contract.

 

Under CDM, the project manager has a duty to ensure that the owner employs a competent designer and contractor. He in effect has a duty to protect the owner from his own incompetence.

 

Similarly, the designer has a duty to be competent, as does the contracor.

 

The current terms (I think) are:

 

Client

Principal designer

Main contractor

Sub-contractor

[sgtkate 10]

The whole thing is politicised...by the very fact that those involved and those who lost their lives are living in a council block in a London borough who wishes that people like them were not there. Part of the reason for adding the cladding was because posher people who had to look at the tower as it was complained to the council that it was an eyesore.

 

Do you think that this would have happened to a privately owned tower of flats where builders, contractors would have had to have kept to health and safety guidelines...and most definitely had to include a sprinkler system...or at least dry risers (that in this tower were removed during the refurbishment).

 

Or do you want to live in a fluffy pink world where poor people don't exist?

 

Julado, I think this would easily have happened in a privately owned block too sadly. Only last year was a law blocked that would have forced landlords to ensure their houses were fit for human habitation, currently there is minimal legislation over what this means and therefore houses can legally be rented in an appalling condition. Unfortunately if there is no law to force builders or apartment managers to do something on safety grounds then they aren't going to do it as it eats into their costs. Parliament should have sorted this out decades ago so this isn't just a Tory issue, Labour had ample time to fix it too and didn't either. This rests partly on all our governments for the last 50 years.

 

So, let's see what happens now. If there is not widespread, and I do mean widespread, changes and legislation brought in urgently to address safety matters in all housing stock then expect riots. Once again it's the poorest members of society who have suffered over profiteering (changes could easily have been made to the building to improve safety and saved lives by getting people out more quickly even if the fire itself couldn't have been stopped). Again the people who feel absolutely lost in our society have born the brunt and once again I don't see a happy ending. I just hope things get fixed properly now and we never see this kind of tragedy again.

[Eater Sundae 12]

OK so what part of it do you think breached H+S guidelines then? And why would private towers be required to have sprinklers and not council since theyd be on the same building regulations.

 

Also I've never ever seen a tower block with external sprinklers....

 

There was an architect on radio 5 live, today, advocating external sprinkler systems, to specifically quench any fires in the external cladding.

 

I don't know if this is already a thing, or whether he was just bouncing ideas around, but he pointed out that this would be a comparatively cheap retro-fit, and would not need disruption to individual flats.

[melthebell 863]

what i dont understand is, if these flats are built to contain a fire in a specific area, ie:- a flat, a floor.

And this fire spread up the outside of the building.

And as rumours suggest it was somebodys fridge freezer that caused it, on the 4th floor.

 

How did the fire get out to the outside cladding? Oo

[Obelix 11]

what i dont understand is, if these flats are built to contain a fire in a specific area, ie:- a flat, a floor.

And this fire spread up the outside of the building.

And as rumours suggest it was somebodys fridge freezer that caused it, on the 4th floor.

 

How did the fire get out to the outside cladding? Oo

 

They left the window open. Hot day I expect, fire and panic - run out quick. You can tell people time and time again to shut all windows but they never do, understandably, or perhaps the fire was in the way and they couldn't shut it.

 

Even so - with an entire flat to burn the window wont last very long. The door will if shut - even the lowest grade of fire door is good for a half hour.

[Eater Sundae 12]

what i dont understand is, if these flats are built to contain a fire in a specific area, ie:- a flat, a floor.

And this fire spread up the outside of the building.

And as rumours suggest it was somebodys fridge freezer that caused it, on the 4th floor.

 

How did the fire get out to the outside cladding? Oo

 

Open window maybe?

 

Just to add further confusion...

 

There was a neighbour being interviewed on 5 live who claimed that the initial fire had been put out - or at least they thought it had been.

 

Obviously a lot of confusion. Hopefully the enquiry will identify the truth amongst all the rumours.

[Obelix 11]

There was an architect on radio 5 live, today, advocating external sprinkler systems, to specifically quench any fires in the external cladding.

 

I don't know if this is already a thing, or whether he was just bouncing ideas around, but he pointed out that this would be a comparatively cheap retro-fit, and would not need disruption to individual flats.

 

Id go for that - if I can get control of it to flush muck spreading pigeons off the outside!

 

I'd have thought that fixing cladding on shouldn't be allowed. Seriously why not just skim some render on and paint it a nice colour. That wont burn....

[I1L2T3 10]

The whole thing is politicised...by the very fact that those involved and those who lost their lives are living in a council block in a London borough who wishes that people like them were not there. Part of the reason for adding the cladding was because posher people who had to look at the tower as it was complained to the council that it was an eyesore.

 

Do you think that this would have happened to a privately owned tower of flats where builders, contractors would have had to have kept to health and safety guidelines...and most definitely had to include a sprinkler system...or at least dry risers (that in this tower were removed during the refurbishment).

 

Or do you want to live in a fluffy pink world where poor people don't exist?

 

No, I realise it is very politicised.

 

The argument I am making is for people to step back a little, calm down, stop arguing, stop making political points based on possibly incomplete or incorrect information. Both sides are at it and I think the victims of this deserve a bit better right now.

 

The politics can happen a little later when we have a clearer picture. And I fully expect it to be a proper crap storm, and I fully expect to get involved.

[Pinkman 10]

what i dont understand is, if these flats are built to contain a fire in a specific area, ie:- a flat, a floor.

And this fire spread up the outside of the building.

And as rumours suggest it was somebodys fridge freezer that caused it, on the 4th floor.

 

How did the fire get out to the outside cladding? Oo

 

Yeah, the initial fire somehow set off the stuff behind the cladding. That then spead around the building and was hot enough to set the rooms inside on fire. All in 15 mins I heard.

 

I suspect it was a case of, a flat on fire, no need to panic.....but in the background everything is getting very hot very quickly and then whoosh, the whole building is suddenly on fire.